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Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135091#msg1135091
« on: May 04, 2014, 05:22:19 pm »
Over the last days and weeks I have noticed several threads pondering possible future directions that Elements could take from where it stands now, and I figured that as one of the oldest (since Summer '09)  and most invested (arena lvl. 83) players around here I'd share my perspective. While most people agree that some changes need to be implemented, I find that most proposed changes are only punctual and not well-eleborated, such as "Add those 3 cards from CIA!", or "Dim Sheild cost +1!". What I would like to do in this post is to take a look at some aspects of the game and apply some game design theory to extrude some more in-general guidelines on how to progress the game. One preface I'd like to make here is that this is not intended as a diss towards Zanzarino or Elements, which still remains a tremendous original work by zanz. This of course doesn't mean it is without flaws. In this post I will try to list and explain some of them, mainly those which I think would take little time to correct compared to the increase in game quality that would bring with it.

So the first, and most obvious issue to get out of the way is that an active developer is needed. That's pretty much the consensus already though, so I won't elaborate much on that.

One thing I do want to adress here is how the design quality of the card game can be improved. I'm going to mainly demonstrate this by giving a few in-game examples:

- The first thing that I would like to adress are the shards and I sadly can't anything more positive than they are way overdue to get axed. They have utterly failed in refreshing the game and have even actively driven a good number of players away from it. I have discussed their flaws in-depth in this post. Naturally, you can't just kick them out with no replacement, so a different, newly designed rare cycle would have to take their place. This wouldn't be too difficult to realize either, just make something cool for each Element that fits, like Darkness could have a big Demon, Fire some kickass Dragon, Aether... already has Fractal, Water some cthulhu-esque Monster, et cetera. Vital requirement though is that they have to be epic, which is not something I see very often in contemporary CI&A, probably because the creators fear to come off like some newb kiddie on a power trip. That's what you'd have to go for here though.

- Next, I'd like to take a side-by-side comparison of two cards that don't seem to have much in common but will help us understand one aspect of good design: Thorn Carapace and Golden Hourglass. Thorn Carapace is a unique card in Elements in that it is, while not actually a very strong card, does something no other card does: It kills everything. Even immortal creatures or those mighty Massive Dragons will die to it within a couple turns. So, what is the problem? It is a Life card. So you're in the paradoxical situation of a Life permanent being the most reliable mass-killer in the game. (Now, some smartass might say that Death is a part of Life, and no, that doesn't count when there's an actual Element called Death in the game as well.) Ideally, the mechanics of a card, how it plays out, already give you a feeling for its background flavour, without looking at its nameor anything. Conversely, let's take a look at the Hourglass: You play it, and what happens now is that the longer the game progresses, the more likely you are to win as the Hourglass will generate you a small advantage each turn: Time is on your side. See? Creating some flavour-mechanical synesthesia can be that easy. Logically, Life, purely mechanically speaking, should be focused on creatures, all with a variety of abilities that allow it to handle most threats - Life is adaptable after all. Another takeaway here is, that not only should cards be made with their elemental background in mind, the y also shape how an Element is perceived on the whole. If an Element has a clear identifieable identity, this is much more evocative than just a pile of random cards that you could somehow justify to put in there. This is why "complete" Elements, that can accomodate any possible playstyle, are simply a design flaw. Each Element should have their strengths and weaknesses, as well as some sort of mechanical identity.

- For another comparison I would like to summon Dimensional Shield and Nova. Both of these cards are currently exeptionally powerful. Which one of them should be nerfed? Well Dimensional Shield definitely has to be. Nova on the other hand, even though it is probably actually a little ahead of Dim Shield in power level, is a much closer call. Why is that? Not all cards are created equal, and some are simply more worthy of receiving a little push from the balancing side. This can be due to its mechanics being for fun in gameplay, as it is the case for Nova. Yes, it is somewhat opressive on the metagame, but it also enables an enormous variety of decks and rewards creative and unconventional deckbuilding. Maybe 3 years ago more so than nowadays, but you can still see an interesting new brew in a restricted even every now and then. Plus those colorful Nova decks are just visually pleasing to look at. Dim Shield on the other hand makes for mostly bland games. It single-handedly shuts down literally half the cards in the game, reducing interactivity to a simple rock-paper-scissor type game of whether you brought an answer for it, or not. Pretty much the same is true for Discord, by the way. Now, Nova and Dimensional Shield were examples for cards that should be balanced differently based on their mechanics, but this can also apply to flavor. More evocative, insipring concepts certainly deserve to be pushed a little bit over more generic cards.

- Next, let us look at the innocuous-looking Blue Crawler. What is my beef with this card? Simply put, bland flavor. The thing that you can take away from the name, is that it is blue... and that it can crawl. What has Water done to deserve such an unimaginative abomination? There are so many cool possibilities for Water without even drifting into the realm of fantasy... Angler Fish. Torpedos. Flying Fish. Do you see how these cards almost design themselves? And that's just scratching the surface. We can definitely do better than Blue Crawler I would say. Of course the poor Crawler isn't the only offender in this category. Another huge obstacle here are the entirety of the dragons. They are all vanilla, any Elements gets one, and they are commons. Dragons are one of the most awe-inspiring concepts in all of fantasy, yet in Elements they are normal commoners, abundant in availability and an easily despended commodity. A very similar point can be made for Guardian Angel, whose outstanding crappiness as a card stands in stark contrast to the lengths that people have gone to to make it playable (There even used to be an FG farmer with it at one point). Angels are cool, so there should be a kickass angel.

- Two Elements are not named correctly. They are the opposite pair of Entropy and Gravity. First let's look at Entropy. Thermodynamics quiz: What does the concept of Entropy have to do with randomness? If your answer is "literally nothing", then you are on the money...  a good number of Entropy cards, and certainly the most popular ones, mechanically reference randomness. And this is just fine the way it is, it's just that the label doesn't fit at all. Gravity's problem is somewhat more deep-rooted in that the label is unfitting as well, but that there have been made unsuccesful attempts to accomodate that label. The problem is that the concept of gravity doesn't really fit into a fantasy world. The most egregious example for this is the card Black Hole - any reasonable expectation for what a card with that name could do would range somewhere between "all players lose their entire board" and "both players are disconned from the game". In EtG it is a cheap utility spell. Some other gravity cards just have the prefix "Graviton" in their name, without giving a hint on what exactly makes this card Graviton. For some cards, the Gravity background was just ignored entirely - "This guy eats things, that's kinda Gravity-ish, right?". Gravity is just too much of a science related concept to fit into a fantasy world. The most simple, and therefore best, solution to this dilemma is to rename Entropy and Gravity to Chaos and Order. Chaos could mostly just stay the way it is with a more fitting name, while Order would finally have a solid fundament to build its card base on.

- Something that needs to be given extensive thought is the Supergame; i.e. the game that surrounds the actual card game. One aspect of the supergame are the - explicit or implicit - goals it sets for the player. Currently those are:
  • Finish the early quests (learning the game)
  • Breaking the various "sound barriers", as in consistently beating various challenging opponents - mainly False Gods and Arena Gold & Platinum League
  • Collect all the grindable rares
  • Open-ended grinding (increasing your score & money)

The biggest current problem with this setup is that it simply takes far too long to reach that last stage. Currently the optimal grinding path is probably something like this:
  • Grind AI3 until you can afford an unupped FG grinder
  • Grind FGs until you can build an upgraded Bronze League grinder
  • Grind Bronze until you have the rares needed for a Platinum / Gold League grinder

 Given that there are also a number of "trap" opponents that just aren't worth playing, ever (AI4, random PvP, usually Silver League), this is just a maze for new players. Elements, as is, is a highly strategic game already - building decks is challenging enough for a new player, people should not have to figure out which opponent to play against optimally. To fix this  problem, firstly rares need to become more accessible as their limited availability is one major hurdle for building the current top-grinding decks. Secondly, the number of available opponents needs to be reduced. Both of these issues will probably require a revamp of the Arena.

Now, obviously this change means that there will be less overall PvE gameplay time (at least for those not so interested in op-ended grinding). This is acceptable, since playing against a PC gets repetitive fairly quickly anyway. The much better way to keep the players invested after they have "beaten" the computer is PvP. This is the way that countless other games are doing it, and an online CCG should lend itself very wellto it. So let's talk about how PvP can be improved:
- Make it so it doesn't crash, as in it works and there are no desyncs. Also getting spectate back would be wonderful. Yes, I am stating the obvious here, and the advice is not particularly helpful, but since these are pretty much technical problems and this post is about game design, I just can't say much else here.
- Speaking of technical problems, higher automation of tournaments would be nice. Nothing against the weekly chat-meetup, but having an in-client solution would be far more elegant.
- A built-in limited format for Elements basically would be the holy grail. I suspect the Elements card pool right now just wouldn't be fit for one (too few cards amongst which there are too many blanks), but it should be kept in mind for a mid-long term goal.

Beyond that, there have been a few more approaches thrown around on how to alter the supergame, which I'd like to discuss now.
The first thing that comes to mind is the map that was/is supposed to get added in Elements 1.4. The idea here is probably to give the game more of an RPG-feel. The problem I see here is that while RPGs are certainly nice, a map is really only just the beginning. Just having a map doesn't change a thing, if anything it just makes it more tedious to get from one fight to the next. Basically, the two aspects that make an RPG great are
a) Experiencing a cool story and
b) Having meaningful ways to develop your own character.
The current Elements 1.4 preview has absolutely nothing to offer in those two categories, and I fear that implementing them would simply take too much manpower. People will always compare an RPG to other RPGs like Skyrim, and I mean, Bethesda has a couple hundred professionals working for them. There is certainly nothing wrong with adding a few RPG elements to EtG, but the map is at this stage just unnecessary.

Implementing more individual quests into Elements is certainly more feasible though you also have to keep in mind what I said about RPGs. If your quest idea is something like "Defeat 3 Level 2s", then just forget about it, it doesn't add anything to the game. A better way of implementing more advanced quests would be to first come up with an interesting story, and then think about how that could be implemented into the game.

One other idea that I have been carrying around for a while and that I believe has also been tossed around in the oEtG project, would be to make FG-like powers accessible for the player. In PvP this could be a fun alternative mode. For PvE one possibility could be an Elements "Titanfall" where you charge up points through wins and then get to play as an FG for a short time.

- Lastly, one completely random idea that I had is that individual subrandom numbers for each instance currently using random number could potentially provide a more satisfying gameplay experience than those generated from a conventional pseudo-RNG.

This concludes my little brainstorming for possible directions that Elements could take. One last thing that I would like to address here is that I predict that most people will find my ideas too radical. This would not surprise me as gamers who are still invested in their game generally tend to dislike change. However I guarantee that all my proposed changes would make the game more attractive to people outside the game, while still staying as true as possible to the core of Elements gameplay. What I'd like to remind you of is that with the current configuration, the Elements playership has been bleeding out for years now. At the same time, other online CCGs like most notably Crackstone, have started emerging. Right around now would be a good, if not the last possible opportunity to advance Elements to the next level.
With that said, I would like to thank everyone who made it down here for reading. :) 10 out.
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Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135098#msg1135098
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 05:59:41 pm »
I don't find your ideas too radical or something. The problem with your suggestions is the same problem mine or other people suggestions have. To put it simply:

This is Zanz game, he will do what he wants, if he wants, when he wants and he more likely doesn't give a (swearing) about other people's suggestions and the community itself. I am not harsh towards Zanz, it is just the plain truth; EtG is NOT a priority to Zanz's life and he has ANY right to halt or completely abandon the progress of his game. Due to this however, EtG is going to die an unavoidable slow death. The only thing we can save is the EtG community and here is where we should focus imho.

Other than that, you can't imagine how happy you made me for appearing once again in here, 10men (and with a huge post too)! I have really missed some old, familiar faces around here. :D
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135107#msg1135107
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 07:54:47 pm »
What is Crackstone?

That was a long read but I must say that it has quite a few perspectives and that it's a good read.

I think this could be relevant for the definition of the different elements. Everything is taken directly from the few text Zanz written himself.
Spoiler for Hidden:
:earth
Spoiler for Hidden:
Earth elementals has power over minerals, metalls and terrestrial beings.
I think zanz means that they are metal,minerals and terrestrial beings.
:air air is made of gas and air creatures .
:water They are ice, aquatic and alchemy beings.
:death
Spoiler for Hidden:
Death elementals are often made of what’s left from a living creature after its demise, you can picture them as made of bones, but that would be simplistic, most of them are made of a liquid similar to petroleum or a solid similar to coal. They often look like frail skinny figures, but they will not die if you stick a knife where you think their heart should be, in fact, the best way to hurt them is to try to heal them – burning them might be an option. Death is that force that incessantly infects, ruins, poisons and causes a living thing to finally give up; it forces them to attempt to create an offspring before too much damage is done to preserve the spark of life. Do not judge it as an evil force; it is also what keeps the death/ life cycle of the universe in motion.
By this I think they would fit perfectly.
 :gravity
Spoiler for Hidden:
elementals are chunky, dense, heavy beings, somewhat similar to sumo wrestlers. They control that force that pulls you close to another object and its direction. They can decide to make themselves a center of gravity making you fall toward them; or they can decide to put that center of gravity somewhere else in the space and they can simply fall there, instead of walking. They ultimately control acceleration, and the motion of anything around them. Gravity works sometime as the opposite of entropy, remember that drop of ink dissolving in the glass of water? Gravity elementals could turn it back into a perfect sphere of ink suspended in the middle of the water.
:entropy
Spoiler for Hidden:
Entropic elementals do now have a defined form; they look fluid, ever-changing in shape. Entropy itself works like a force that separates and creates random entities at the same time, like dropping some black ink in a glass of clear water, what is that thing that created all of those strange shapes within the water?

Sadly I don't think I can find much more since Zanz hasn't said very much about the elements. Even if he said that he got a clear picture of every element.

I'd like to add that patch 1.4 also allows more unique decks with it's ability to have more hp and more start marks. This to improve the variety of decks. The decks are also made to be fun to play against and not like arena to beat your enemy.

Patch 1.4 will also allow you to attach to one element and gain skill in form of more hp and several starting marks.

I think the best thing we can do right now is the help Zanz focus what we want. Regardless of how skilled he is we know more about the game than he ever will and I'm sure that if we say something we all agrees to Zanz will listen to it.
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Offline Chapuz

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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135111#msg1135111
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 08:52:40 pm »
I think the map of 1.4 can come with an evolution of your character, like having advantages of certain element when achieving certain things related to them (remember there are areas separated by elements)
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135115#msg1135115
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 09:18:14 pm »
Though it's all been said before, it's not bad to have a post where points are gathered. Entropy, Gravity, Darkness, Light, Aether and Time have many times spawned the discussion of other names for elements that more accurately reflect the way they actually play, mostly because people want to discern the moral ground of these elements on account of them being vaguely named and not adhering to a consistent theme gameplay-wise. Chaos and Order were often brought up as alternatives, and I still agree that they would be more accurate names.

More unique, interesting cards. I preach this pretty much every time anyone brings the discussion up again.

AI4 is as profitable as unupped FG farming, but offers better score and w/l ratio. Relatively recent studies showed that. Silver is a good middle path for when you're semi-upped and can make Snova controlbows. Silver then becomes the most profitable AND offers rares at almost the same pace as Bronze. AI4 remains one of the most profitable at this stage, but are starting to become outclassed by FG's, and are pretty much outclassed by Silver for the aforementioned reason. If you do have all the rares you need, however, and not the cards to make a semi-upped FG killer yet, AI4 remains the best for electrum at this stage.

RNG can be improved, yep. Ancient point of discussion, not much to say.

More quests are coming with 1.4, as is individual growth as an elemental. You can already get 150 starting health from quests, in fact. Something I like to remind people of is that zanz once said that one day he'd like everyone to be able to have their own unique deck and even their own unique card. A card or entire deck that no one else could make. It's just the pace of development that's hard to swallow, but in the end I can see why that's not a big issue to him. Since it's a well-designed game, he'll always have a player-base.
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135129#msg1135129
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2014, 01:00:07 am »
 First of all, Elements is a great card game! is dying, yes, but we all know that Zanz can resurrects when desired, he is a great disigner and ETG proves that.
 The fact is that for some reason, real life or simply disinterest in ETG did leave this project.
 I agree with many things you said, and many here also have very interesting things to add.
 But while Zanz not shown active everything is dead, what we do is work on OETG, and all changes are worked there if Zanz serprex and thus allow.
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135130#msg1135130
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2014, 01:16:53 am »
Zanz updates the game when he feels like it. Deal with it.

And I expect about 50% of the above complaints to be addressed when 1.4 gamma (late beta) comes out.
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135145#msg1135145
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2014, 05:52:40 am »
Agreed on every point.


Some clarifying information:
1) As you said, Rare cards should be Epic. Epic does not mean OP. Epic means that the card has a big impact on the shape of both the deck it is included in and on matches where it is used. Several Rare weapons (both in game and in the CIA) are great examples of this concept. This is partially because card designers realize often only 1 weapon is used at a time. Rare cards should be designed for single copy usages. (However since multiple copies can be used they should also be designed for multiple copy usage).

2) You defined "complete elements" as elements "that can accomodate any possible playstyle" in order to critique that design flaw. This is not the only definition used for "complete elements"*. You are absolutely correct in that that^ is a terrible design flaw. (The more elements there are the harder it is not to succumb to that design flaw.)

*Another common definition is "elements that can attack and defend against most/all foes". Thorn Carapace helps Life towards this definition but by sacrificing part of Life's identity. Less lethal and more creature based defenses would have worked towards this goal while avoiding the design flaw of the other^^ definition.
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135165#msg1135165
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2014, 11:19:48 am »
With current inactivity of the game developer, I don't believe any of your suggestions would ever be implemented into the game. Some good hints for Open EtG makers though.
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Re: Some perspectives on design of Elements. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54447.msg1135283#msg1135283
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2014, 05:46:17 am »
I largely agree with most of the OP points.

I do disagree a little on the gravity and entropy point. Mostly entropy, but a little on gravity as well.
What does entropy have to do with randomness? Entropy is a measure of the unrestricted degrees of freedom available to a system. Although this is not directly tied to randomness, it IS tied strongly to uncertainty. Randomness and the RNG are simply ways to extend this concept into gameplay. The randomness is a metaphor for uncertainty. Moreover:
Information Theory quiz: "What does entropy have to do with randomness?" In the context of information theory, entropy is "the uncertainty in a random variable" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory) ) so I think entropy is a good umbrella under which to place randomness based thematics.

I do agree that gravity is a little oddly named. I think the gravity element would be more aptly described as the "Force" element really. I do think black hole behaves in an intuitive manner. Black holes suck in energy of all forms, so sucking in qunata is a pretty effective mechanic... although as far as healing goes I've got no idea (maybe a nod toward black body radiation? thats the best I got). The futuristic theme, I think, is still fine in a fantasy game. There are examples elsewhere of where this fits in nicely (might and magic, the titans in WoW, the Urza saga in MtG, etc.) I do agree, however, that it often seems like everything futuristic just seems to get lumped into gravity with the name "Graviton" tacked on because there isn't a better place to put it... Personally I think the time and aether elements could take over at least some of that load.

Cardinal elements in general are tricky, however, because they are by nature highly abstract. The thematic lines get the most blurry.

Other than that I think you hit most things pretty dead on.
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