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Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475197#msg475197
« on: March 28, 2012, 11:40:52 pm »
Today in chat, the idea and value of the Shockwave and Freeze combo was discussed.

Why can a voodoo doll being frozen freeze the opponent's weapon but with a spell, not the rest of permanents?

Why can a frozen weapon be shattered with a Shockwave but not any other frozen permanent?

Is the concept of freezing permanents too powerful? Should :water Water be given this type of permanent control? Would it make the game more strategic? Furthermore, don't the elements of :water Water and :air Air deserve at least some shred of permanent control?

Of course, :darkness Darkness and :fire Fire are the most potent when it comes to permanent control, but there have been many card ideas which revolve around the idea of other manners to have permanent control, without blatant destruction or removal and in other elements.

What I propose here is that both Shockwave and Freeze receive a slight buff such that Shockwave be able to destroy outright any permanent which is frozen, and that the spell Freeze be able to freeze any permanent. It could open many new strategic doors, not only for the elements themselves but also for card design.

**This is a version with a slight cost increase, to be on the safe side**
**Slight wording modifications**


  • Freeze and Congeal would still keep their respective durations.
  • Voodoo Doll interaction would be unchanged.
  • Freeze would only target and affect the top card of a stack, and thusly Shockwave would affect the same one.
  • Arctic Squid could remain with the version of the spell that can only target creatures.
  • Shockwave would not be able to affect any permanent that is not frozen.
  • Freeze could then be in a position to receive a cost increase of +1 :water.
  • Shockwave + Freeze interaction would be unchanged with respect to creatures.
Quote
[18:26:59] Zblader: Shockwave's PC ability only comes mostly into light if you build a deck focusing on Freeze, e.g. IceBolt/Shockwave Stall or Squids/Shockwave stall.

[18:27:57] Hyroen: ‹@Zblader› I say neigh. 4 damage is more than enough to take out most creatures, plus considering Freeze lasts 3-4 turns, you might be better off not devoting a part of your deck to the combo.

[18:28:21] Zblader: ‹@Hyroen› Yeah, it's a weak example at best.

[18:28:26] Hyroen: the ability to instakill is a little less appealing than it is at first glance.

[18:28:58] majofa: Shockwave + EE = really good CC

[18:29:02] Zblader: The effect is barely influential enough to avoid being flavor but is too situational to actually be a viable strategy.

[18:29:21] Zblader: shatter frozen cards effect*

[18:29:40] pulli23: meh too much combo too

[18:30:01] Hyroen: If freeze and shockwave could affect any permanent, now there you have something interesting.

[18:30:33] pulli23: even then it would hardly be used

[18:30:49] pulli23: I mean, 2 elements, where a deflag is 1, cheaper & more reliable?

[18:31:11] Zblader: ‹@pulli23› It's much more flexible, though.

[18:31:25] Hyroen: Shockwave would not be PC, but if a permanent were frozen (through Freeze) then it could done.

[18:31:30] Zblader: Note that Deflag is also more expensive than either Shockwave or Freeze would be if they were changed accordingly.

[18:32:02] Zblader: This probably wouldn't raise the cost of Freeze or Shockwave either because both effects are still net weaker than an actual Explosion or Lightning.

[18:32:13] pulli23: you can always use pc anyways, don't really need the flexibility :P

[18:32:16] Zblader: or more net expensive*

[18:32:34] Zblader: ‹@pulli23› And you're saying the PC meta should be dominated by Explosion and Steal?

[18:32:35] Hyroen: Not to mention that permanent control via the combo would probably be quite the risk, considering they could take out any dangerous creature, provided it's not immaterial.

[18:33:10] pulli23: so it's still not really good to add to decks

[18:33:57] Hyroen: And back to the previous topic, that change would buff :water Water and :air Air, and provide more versatility, which has been considered an opportunity for skill to seize control of the win.

[18:34:17] Zblader: ‹@pulli23› Is there a card ingame than can actually be a viable PC (target any permanents) and viable CC (targeting any creature) at the same time?

[18:34:55] Hyroen: BE could be seen as CC if at least for the lobo.

[18:35:02] Zblader: ‹@Hyroen› Which is also a entirely valid change seeing as Water and Air are on the more limited spectrum when it comes to Element completion

[18:35:11] Hyroen: and a limited one at that (<3)

[18:35:44] Hyroen: (not a heart, less than 3 attack, lol)

[18:36:02] Zblader: ‹@Hyroen› True but it's not often you pay 5 :entropy for a lobo.

[18:36:28] Zblader: That's kind of similar to what we said about shockwave before - the second use is too situational but is enough impact to avoid simply being flavor.

[18:36:47] Zblader: (Diffence being that this use isn't a blatantly stated effect)
Discuss. Good idea? Bad one?

***I apologize if this is posted in the wrong area. This topic has more to do with the buffing of an interaction between which consists of 2 individual card buffs. I figured 1 thread which explained both cases would be better than 2 topics relating to the same concept.
***
Special thanks to Zblader for brainchewing things with me.
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Offline Poker Alho

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475203#msg475203
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 11:57:26 pm »
i like the idea, but im not sure about the cost raise with freeze and it could be a pain when coding this because of artic squid but i dont know anything about that either

Offline Shrink

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475204#msg475204
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 12:05:28 am »
I would love this modification.

There's not much else I can say, you've answered all of the questions I would have had asked in the OP.

Nice job.
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475210#msg475210
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 12:20:43 am »
Once shard of focus comes in, everyone and their mom will have permanent removal in any deck :p  One problem with freezing permanents would be the issue of freezing an entire stack of pillars/pends, killing quanta generation for 3-4 turns.  I don't think changing shockwave and freeze is necessary; they're already decent cards, but I would support the type of mechanics you're talking about on new cards, as long as they couldn't freeze pillars/pends.  You might be able to justify a spell that froze a pillar stack for one turn, although chaining that would be a pain in the ass similar to black hole spam now.

Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475213#msg475213
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 12:22:48 am »
@dragonsdemesne: In "Details" it is clarified that a frozen stack would only affect the top card.
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475281#msg475281
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 03:10:54 am »
@dragonsdemesne: In "Details" it is clarified that a frozen stack would only affect the top card.
Heh, either I didn't read those, or they were added afterwards.  Either way, I agree with that proposal, although I still think these new ideas would be better suited to new cards rather than tacked onto existing ones.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475356#msg475356
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 06:57:16 am »
These changes would be valuable.
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Offline Absol

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475623#msg475623
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 12:22:15 am »
This is a good idea, and i support this. However, this brings technical difficulties.
We haven't got a card which can target both creatures and permanents. How will the coding for freeze work? Will it be OP with squid?
How will Shockwave targeting work? Will it be able to target perma normally (for no damage except when frozen) or just when the target is frozen?
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Offline Poker Alho

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475625#msg475625
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 12:23:59 am »
This is a good idea, and i support this. However, this brings technical difficulties.
We haven't got a card which can target both creatures and permanents. How will the coding for freeze work? Will it be OP with squid?
How will Shockwave targeting work? Will it be able to target perma normally (for no damage except when frozen) or just when the target is frozen?
I believe most of the answers you seek are in details

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475632#msg475632
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2012, 12:38:56 am »
Must have missed that the first time. Thanks.
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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475687#msg475687
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2012, 02:50:52 am »
To address the issue of Arctic Squid, at 2 defense, it's pretty easily removed, and the ability increase could be used as a nerf if prolems arose. I see no reason why this isn't already in the works.

Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Re: Shockwave + Freeze: The untapped potential http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37826.msg475693#msg475693
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2012, 02:55:47 am »
To address the issue of Arctic Squid, at 2 defense, it's pretty easily removed, and the ability increase could be used as a nerf if prolems arose. I see no reason why this isn't already in the works.
I think the main issue lies not in cost or in vulnerability, but that with Quintessence, you've got a virtually untouchable creature which can handle pretty much anything thrown its way. I would think this type of versatility verges onto overpowered territory.

If most think that Arctic Squid could be given the flexible Freeze then I'll include it, but for the time being I think it would be best if Freeze and Congeal work with creatures and permanents while Arctic Squid only be allowed to target creatures, and possibly receive a change in skill name to something like Cold Touch.
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