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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg142613#msg142613
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 03:49:40 pm »
I dont think all the implications of this are being thought of. It will effect a lot more than the user. Eternal phoenix, Rainbow, Paradox AND miracle all use a "ultimate spell" where as RoL hope and CCYB are about the only anti decks that DO use them. It would make those 2 decks a lot weaker, where as all the other rainbows would be better, and the hard FGs suddenly became easier (miracle becomes even easier)
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Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg142615#msg142615
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 03:51:47 pm »
Don't forget about Morte!

Krahhl

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg142770#msg142770
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 08:18:52 pm »
Are you saying you can hardly think of a working rainbow deck that does not rely on miracle and fractal? That seems like a rather unlikely statement.
My mistake, I meant rainbowing with fractal and miracle. Of course, decks that do not use these cards would not be affected.

trozman

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg144051#msg144051
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 02:50:39 pm »
Additionally, rainbow will often not have (or need) a large supply of a single quantum type. An ultimate fire card, for instance, would be disastrous for your fahrenheit and fire bolts. A rainbow deck: ah, what the hell, let's play doomsday (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11365.msg149675#msg149675) and see what happens, I have 160 hp anyway.
Wait wait, you're linking to your OWN card idea to show why rainbows need to be nerfed?

Uhhh, sorry, no, that just means your card idea IS A CRAPPY UNBALANCED CARD IDEA.

Sorry, I'm not going to bother making a card that uses 60 of each quanta type and then say "see? rainbows are underpowered, they can't even use that card easily!" :))

PuppyChow

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg144221#msg144221
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 06:50:25 pm »
This nerf to ultimate spells would make fractal completely unviable. Thus, it wouldn't be an ultimate spell at all. It would be the spell nobody uses. Miracle would be less affected, I think, but I dislike the idea simply because it goes too far with fractal.

the Sage

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg144901#msg144901
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2010, 04:25:53 pm »
This nerf to ultimate spells would make fractal completely unviable. Thus, it wouldn't be an ultimate spell at all. It would be the spell nobody uses. Miracle would be less affected, I think, but I dislike the idea simply because it goes too far with fractal.
Hmmm, I hadn't considered that using fractal would leave you unable to play the creatures you just took into your hand. You're right that that would be overnerfing fractal (even though it could do with some). Can we find a way to make this work?

Wait wait, you're linking to your OWN card idea to show why rainbows need to be nerfed?
Uhhh, sorry, no, that just means your card idea IS A CRAPPY UNBALANCED CARD IDEA.
Sorry, I'm not going to bother making a card that uses 60 of each quanta type and then say "see? rainbows are underpowered, they can't even use that card easily!" :))
I can see your point about referring to my own ideas, but you're taking it a bit too far. Aside from commenting on your poor forum etiquette, I would like to invite you to provide your first valid argument against Bomb|Doomsday (but please do so in the appropriate thread)

My point here (the validity of which does not rely on the example I used) is that a lot of ideas for ultimate spells would be more interesting/balanced, if it weren't for the fact that rainbows can use them all (on the same turn) with actually lower cost than monos. As I expect we will see more such cards, I used an idea for one as an example.
I used my own idea at the time, because it was while writing that card idea that I came up with this point; realizing that draining all quanta would be better balance for both this card idea and several others. It was therefore the first such idea that came to my mind. The same goes for other drain all ideas:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6613.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9282.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10236.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4424.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5659.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5669.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5219.html

(Note: though I agree that referring to my own example was sub-optimal, allow me to point out that your hypothetical '60 of each quantum type' is easier for a rainbow than for a non-rainbow)

Krahhl

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg145102#msg145102
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 10:46:59 pm »
I think fractal and miracle are fine as they are.

The main point of them draining your remaining quanta isn't so that you can't use any aether/light card that turn, but so that you can't stockpile a lot of quanta and then use fractal and miracle multiple turns in a row. The god Miracle can spam miracle because he produces over 12 light quanta per turn, but many rainbow decks with eight pillars would be lucky to produce 3.

Draining all quanta would hurt any deck using these cards that's not mono. This would include Decay, Eternal Phoenix, even Rainbow. And as you have said, no mono uses fractal or miracle anyway.

If you can think of a more reasonable way to nerf them, feel free to suggest it. But I think they have been balanced well in design.

trozman

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg145304#msg145304
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 03:08:34 am »
You're suggesting a nerf or fundamental change in game mechanics (because you're not just talking about Miracle or Fractal, you're talking about all future 'ultimate' spells, indefinitely) because you are seeing a lot of ultimate cards in the card ideas. If this was really an appropriate change, then feel free to suggest it to all those people who submitted ultimate card ideas. Instead of going through the vetted card idea submission process, you're trying to bypass it through a game suggestion. (After all, every ultimate card could just say "drain all quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta"...). Though I'm sure you'll find it would be highly unpopular to the card idea submitters, just as you're finding most people in this thread find it to be a poor idea. So if you're going to talk about poor forum etiquette, yours is likewise lacking, because your suggestion itself fits with the card ideas process. ;)

After all, if people don't like this idea, they could always create a card idea that is "drain 499 aether quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta" so it's no longer an 'ultimate' spell.. which is silly but it just goes to show - rather than trying to make a systematic change, this should just be 2 posts in "Nerf This Card!" and then replies in the card idea section.

the Sage

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Re: Changing ultimate spells http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg145800#msg145800
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 10:17:38 pm »
After all, if people don't like this idea, they could always create a card idea that is "drain 499 aether quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta" so it's no longer an 'ultimate' spell.. which is silly but it just goes to show - rather than trying to make a systematic change, this should just be 2 posts in "Nerf This Card!" and then replies in the card idea section.
Yeah, it may apply more to some ultimate card ideas than others. You could make some drain all, and others drain all of one type. But isn't everyone an OCD-nut who needs to have the same system card for all quanta? I can hardly stand the fact that only  :aether and  :light have them as is!

 

blarg: