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Offline foxrain4Topic starter

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Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187654#msg1187654
« on: April 25, 2015, 07:04:20 AM »
i just realized full control decks are not popular is not because they are weak
but because they are slow, reaping you little electrum in a long game.

just a suggestion:
after the first 10 turns,
each turn gives you one extra electrum.

but players here probably have a better suggestion.

Offline iancudorinmarian

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187662#msg1187662
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 09:06:40 AM »
There is a reward for them: EM. Especially the 500HP EM ones.
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Offline Sera

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187663#msg1187663
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 09:17:33 AM »
There is a reward for them: EM. Especially the 500HP EM ones.
The problem is that most control decks are not made to EM, and not even all stalls are made to EM.

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187693#msg1187693
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 02:40:28 PM »
i just realized full control decks are not popular is not because they are weak
but because they are slow, reaping you little electrum in a long game.
-snip-

You probably refer to Bronze or Silver arena. Those indeed offer little income for your games. There the obviously small amount added by your idea would have some effect.

But overall, when someone gets to play 'for real', the amounts one could gain from :electrum/turn extra are just so small people would hardly notice.
Plus, while earning a steady income is hard in the beginning, that is the challenge that one needs. No challenge means no joy in overcoming it.
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Offline Chapuz

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187711#msg1187711
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 05:32:58 PM »
I agree with this suggestion.
EtG has a "less TTW = more profittable" PvE metagame. This makes other types of decks become unreliable not only because of the win rate but for the speed. If decks with X average TTW had Y gold won in a game, a deck that lasts 2X turns should ideally win 2Y gold.

But the factor to reward isn't the turns. I can play with a rush against a denial/defensive deck, and if I win I would take a lot of turns anyways. What should be rewarded is what you achieve, for example:
Rush: You play more games in the same time, you are indirectly rewarded with no extra reward
EM: Only some stalls have high EM rate, and should be rewarded as they are.
High HP: you achieved to increase your HP, and deserve the reward for that as you currently are

So why are now rushes more profittable than stalls? Because the reward for stalls isn't big enough.
In oetg we opted for having a buttload of small bonuses for lots of things that in general rushes don't achieve, like having a lot of creatures, a lot of permanents, making a OTK, winning with 100% damage on excess (done easily reducing your opponent's HP with SoV), killing more than 5 creatures (rushes don't pack that much CC), etc. The balance will be in progress for at least 2 months until people make statistics of different decks, but it's a way to go.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 05:37:42 PM by Chapuz »
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Offline foxrain4Topic starter

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1187797#msg1187797
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 01:54:56 AM »
Quote
In oetg we opted for having a buttload of small bonuses for lots of things that in general rushes don't achieve, like having a lot of creatures, a lot of permanents, making a OTK, winning with 100% damage on excess (done easily reducing your opponent's HP with SoV), killing more than 5 creatures (rushes don't pack that much CC), etc. The balance will be in progress for at least 2 months until people make statistics of different decks, but it's a way to go.
thats an impressive idea, because it not only buffs control decks,
its also makes a lot of variations of decks more popular.

i will have more incentives to use my other saved decks
and players will be more motivated to try creating other decks rather than
spamming the same rush damage deck.

one reason why MTG is fun is because of the many deck constructing possibilities,
if elements can forgo the rush damage deck takes all electrum,
elements will become an even more impressive card game where you
will be preparing highly customized deck challenging against decks you have never seen before.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1214230#msg1214230
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 06:43:48 PM »
Yes please.
 
I, and many others, find playing "rush decks" to be mind-numbingly boring. Yet those decks are vastly better for grinding, to the point that I feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot if I use a deck I actually enjoy playing.

Offline Tha_Playa_Slaya

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1214263#msg1214263
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 12:05:50 AM »
I agree with much what is being said. I think a base reward is fine, but players would find more decks appealing if they were rewarded for accomplishing certain feats during the course of the duel.
Recently, I went back to play the Yu-Gi-Oh! 2005 GBA game and was a little disappointed to remember how lack-luster duel point attainment was. (you paid for cards and packs with duel points [DP]). I remembered then that one of the games with the most satisfying DP attainment strategy was Yu-Gi-Oh! 2006. On top of base rewards for the difficulty of the deck you faced, there were all sorts of bonuses to go for, which only certain deck archetypes were capable of achieving. However, nearly all deck types were rewarded in a way that didn't make you feel like "shooting yourself in the foot for using the deck you actually enjoy playing" (loose quote from ratcharmer).
Spoiler for list of bonuses:
Total Damage Bonus: Gain the amount of damage you did in battle (times some coefficient like .1) as bonus reward. This rewards the players for the extra time spent when facing decks with strong healing.
Battle Damage only Bonus: If you win by strictly causing damage to opponent with monsters' attacks, bonus reward of some amount or multiplier.
Effect Damage only Bonus: If you win by strictly causing damage to opponent with monsters' effects or spells, bonus reward of some amount or multiplier. (In EtG, Poison only decks)
Max Attack Bonus: *Have the highest attack of an attacking monster. *Minimum attack requirement (could be 20 for EtG). Gain the attack of that monster (times some coefficient) as reward  :electrum.
Max Damage Bonus...
Destroy in Battle Bonus...
No monsters bonus...
No spells bonus...
Opponent turn finish bonus: Get rewarded for winning when it's your opponent's turn. (Always fun)
No Damage bonus...
Exactly 0 HP bonus...
+ Many more
For a full list of bonuses and their particular calculations in the game: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Yu-Gi-Oh!_Ultimate_Masters:_World_Championship_2006:_Duelist_Points_and_Duel_Bonuses
^ I hope linking like this isn't against the forum rules... let me know.
Anyways, aiming for super powering one monster for a big bonus or restricting yourself to no PC for rewards actually worth the hassle doesn't seem like a bad idea. Plus, it was always a lot of fun reading the "tab" as it added up your bonus score and you got a receipt for that duel's achievements.
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Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1214792#msg1214792
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 06:10:48 PM »
One more quick point I'd like to make:
Not only can stall decks be frustratingly slow to grind with, they can also be frustratingly slow to grind against. I'm sure we've all had that one game that never seemed to end and afterward you wish that you had forfeited even if you won, because you could have finished three games in that same time period.

The idea of earning special bonuses is appealing, but there's a few points of caution I'd like to make:
  • Be sure to include "catch all" categories like long game etc, we don't want someone screwed just because no one thought to add a reward for how their deck works
  • Be careful not to buff decks that are already top-tier grinders--many bonuses you list ("Battle Damage Only", "No Spells") would apply to rush decks more often than stall.
  • I'm not sure how possible it would be to code many of these. Right now Elements doesn't keep track of cards you played last turn etc so adding some of these to the game would take major code revisions.

In the end, I think just handing out a few extra :electrum for long games might be easier to pull off.

Offline bripod

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1214810#msg1214810
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 09:42:58 PM »
I myself play with a 500hp deck. Platinum with a base payout of 250 :electrum will gain you 1500 :electrum with a 500hp EM. (even more if the deck you beat is Rank 1-9)

I would love to see an additional bonus if your opponent grows their HP and you beat them.

Offline Tha_Playa_Slaya

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1214818#msg1214818
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 10:35:20 PM »
  • Be sure to include "catch all" categories like long game etc, we don't want someone screwed just because no one thought to add a reward for how their deck works
  • Be careful not to buff decks that are already top-tier grinders--many bonuses you list ("Battle Damage Only", "No Spells") would apply to rush decks more often than stall.
  • I'm not sure how possible it would be to code many of these. Right now Elements doesn't keep track of cards you played last turn etc so adding some of these to the game would take major code revisions.
I understand the apprehension, but the bonuses I was listing off were just examples from another card game. Many don't apply or simply don't work mechanically for Elements (like bonuses for "Number of Ritual Summons", "Number of Fusion Summons", or "Number of Tribute Summons"). The idea behind them is what made them great: offering an increased reward for harder or more strategic play styles to increase their viability. In Yu-Gi-Oh!, summoning monsters increases in difficulty like so: normal summon, tribute summon, fusion summon, ritual summon. As such, the bonuses for each increase like this: 0, 80, 150, 300.

Spoiler for personal opinions and such:
Completely my personal opinion, but it doesn't sit well with me to put aside ideas just because they would be difficult to code or implement--at least not right off the bat. Ideas shouldn't be limited by the  difficulty of the project. If afterwards, it is found that there are technical limitations, then that's a totally logical reason to go no further.
I also don't expect any more from Elements than what is here already. If another update comes, then super duper awesome. If not, that's fine too. From this, I would only expect sweeping changes like these to be considered for oetg or Cygnia. Else, all of this would be simple speculation.
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Offline foxrain4Topic starter

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Re: Increased Electrum rewards for longer battles to buff control decks http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=58217.msg1217383#msg1217383
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 02:32:54 PM »
just an enhanced version of my previous increased electrum rewards suggestion.

When you roll that oracle everyday,
you can get a "quest"

That quest will be something like
your next battle: Battle of Poseidon

"after the first 10 turns,
each turn gives you one extra electrum."

or

your next battle: Battle of Hephaestus

"If you complete the fight in less than 10 turns,
you get additional rewards based on how fast you complete the game."

Well, there will be other different quests that gives extra electrum,
and different quests will require different types of decks archetypes
to take advantage of the electrum quests.

The quest can be completed once daily.
But it should be enough to encourage different types of decks variations.

 

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