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Offline iDaireTopic starter

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148408#msg1148408
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2014, 08:18:54 pm »
* Dublicate of a creature like Dragon? Paying 10 :underworld or more while you can have a dragon for 7 :aether?
* You can effectively run 12 copies of a card with PU (or you can PU your opponent's creature if stronger).
* Buffs anyone? PUing an Adrenalined Momentumed creature? A flying weapon? A multi-blessed Pegasus? Just a few examples...
* OTKs anyone?
*Ok, you have that one.
*You can effectively kill your enemy before they reach 42 aether quanta plus 6x quanta.
*Lobotomizer and CC anyone?
*Otks take a while to set up. Again, effective kills.

Offline Espithel

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148410#msg1148410
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2014, 08:22:32 pm »
I feel that using a duo just for TU to get dragons out cheaper is actually slower than just a mono with other things.
But hey, just my (uneducated) opinion.

Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148413#msg1148413
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2014, 08:35:40 pm »
@Frozengaia: I don't find your opinions uneducated, even when I disagree with them. You are one of the politest and most educated people in here. :)

@DeathReign:
* Ty.
* Irrelevant. If I bring 6 Dragons in my deck, I will be dead before reaching 60 :underworld quanta. Does that make my Dragons useless? Nope...
* Thanks for bringing Lobo and CC as an example. That proves once again the OPness of lobo. :P Btw, only CC spells/abilities like RT & Mutation will be able to always destroy the buffed creature and just destroy it. You will be able to 'steal' it with TU. And now, if you combine TU with Mutation or RT to get rid of your opponent's hitter, you are the king.
* Ty once again.
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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148415#msg1148415
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2014, 08:37:36 pm »
A different line of thought regarding the elements in question:

Just an idea, but.. what would happen (first, without touching any of the above discussed matters) if both Dim Shield and Thorn's playcost would simply be 'swapped'? Both un/upped of course.
I think simple changes like that could turn the overall balance of power to feel a little bit more fair for everyone - without breaking any of the current (well known, and some well designed) thematics.

Sorry for interrupting.

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I've been meaning to respond to this, but I don't even know where to start.

I agree that Aether is very strong. But overpowered?

One of your issues with Aether's creatures is the Immaterial nature of Immortal and Phase Dragon. Yes, you can't target them and they are hard to remove, but they have their own costs. They have a terribly bad cost-to-attack ratio and still for sub-par stats. And let's see what the numbers have to say using Phase Dragon as a basis.

8 Attack [ 8 :underworld ] + Immaterial [ 4 :aether due to Quintessence] + Additional Card Cost [ 1 :underworld ] = 12 :aether
10 Attack [ 10 :underworld ] + Immaterial [ 4 :aether due to Quintessence] + Upgrade Bonus [ -1 :aether ] + Additional Card Cost [ 1 :underworld ] = 13 :aether

I hold that this value is accurate to within 1 :underworld cost, meaning that Phase Dragon is balanced. If anything, the in-game cost is overpriced unless I've forgotten some other necessary value.

Regarding the killing potential of Lightning, do you know what else deals 5 damage? Rage Potion. It has an additional +1 to cost compared to Lightning due to the utility it has as a buff.

Dimensional Shield is definitely annoying but still manageable. I could see the cost increasing but not more than +1 or +2 to playing cost. Same goes for Psion. But that about ends my qualms with Aether.



You argue the thematic standpoint of Life's offensive nature by comparing it to Fire. They are two different approaches to a very aggressive damage mind set. Fire deals more with glass cannons and burst. Life deals with consistent growing power.

Adrenaline's Magic Numbers are 3, 6, 7, 8. These are the attack values, so yes, Adrenaline still has power past an attack of 5. In fact, stronger at the values just past it, dealing 12, 12, 15, and 17 damage in respect to the previously mentioned Magic Numbers.

I'll find time to address other points eventually.

Offline Higurashi

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148426#msg1148426
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2014, 09:10:46 pm »
Two factors when going about determining the sweet spots for Adren.
1: the total damage done with a target+adren.
2: how much damage Adren adds.

Yes, you quadruple damage at 1 and 2 attack, but you only end up with 4 or 8 damage done. 2 isn't terrible since you're getting 6 damage from Adren; in other words a good cost:attack ratio, but at 3 attack you get 9 attack. The formula for 4, 5, 7 and 8 is x2(+1), so you get +5, +6, +8 and +9 respectively. From that you can see that 7 and 8 are the second best sweet spots, with 8 yielding as much as it does for 3 attack.

Anything above that has comparatively terrible yields, however even getting 4 or 5 attack for a 4 or 3 cost card isn't terrible on paper. It's just a bad idea because there are better targets that cost less, which means you'd be less weak to soft CC.

Heal is the go-to card for EM'ing with Imp. Miracle, so it's used a fair bit in controlbows. However, so is Forest Spectre and Giant Frog. Those three are all strong cards, with Scorpion and Epi being good enough to be used as well, but they have far more niche effects (Elite Cocka is solid as well, albeit lower potential). Statistically speaking, Spectre or Giant Frog would be the strongest.

Other points have been discussed more than enough in my presence, so I don't feel a need to repeat the points themselves. I will simply agree that Aether is OP, Life is UP and that "Additional Card Cost [ 1 :underworld ]" is more like an exponential formula that scales with how much value the card has. For instance, Elite Phase Dragon has 10 attack and thus not having to play Quint on it is worth more than 1 :underworld. 2 is clearly fair if we look at how balanced EPD is in the meta, and I wouldn't even mind if it costed 15 :aether. In the same vein, Immortal and Elite Immortal are overshadowed precisely because they don't have enough card value.
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Offline Espithel

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148439#msg1148439
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2014, 09:52:15 pm »
My opinion on life, however, is it doesn't have enough stuff in it, and the stuff it does have isn't supposed as well as it should be.

Let's name all the stuff darkness can do, that's special.
Darkness can PC.
Darkness can siphon resources.
Darkness can lockdown (nightmare)
Darkness can quanta ramp.

Let's name all the things... Entropy can do, that's special about it.
Entropy can CC.
Entropy can lockdown (Antimatter, discord)
Entropy can buff.
Entropy can PC.

Life?
Life can heal.
Life can buff.
That's it.

Notice how it only has 2 special things (Every element can attack well, so...) about it, and that buffing is outclassed in gravity/aether, and that healing is outclassed in light?

If we talk about life's attack, what it has is swarms of tiny damage.
What do shields do?
Reduce the damage of EVERY creature by X.
Life is hurt the most by shields.

Healing:
Compare SoGgy to Sanctuary..
20 HP for EMs? Luciferin for 10, in any element. 20 HP is very easy to shred.
Druidic? ... I admit adrenastaves is really good, but...Idk. This is all my opinion ;~;
What about Empathic? Really powerful, deactivatable by single mass CC, and slow.

Life doesn't do enough. What life DOES do it is outshadowed by.
Ironically, I put the harshest restriction on designing life cards personally (Life cards must care about the user), but I digress.

If life could do an extra thing, that'd solve most of its problems. But that's an oETG issue.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:56:48 pm by Frozengaia »

Offline Fippe94

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148441#msg1148441
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2014, 10:00:59 pm »
Life can also :
Spawn creatures (Mitosis)
Wear down enemy creatures (Thorn shield)
Poison opponent
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Offline Espithel

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148443#msg1148443
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2014, 10:07:50 pm »
Spawning more creatures counts as buffing, imo.
Thorn shield is so bad that... Is it even worth counting as something special?
Posion... Good point.

Okay, add one. It's still 1 behind.

Offline Dm

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148445#msg1148445
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2014, 10:17:20 pm »
I dropped this thread when I opened the first spoiler and read "Aether is overpowered".

Offline iDaireTopic starter

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148446#msg1148446
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2014, 10:23:34 pm »
I dropped this thread when I opened the first spoiler and read "Aether is overpowered".
Prove it is not.
Edit: Please.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:32:34 pm by deathreign3 »

Offline omegareaper7

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148470#msg1148470
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 12:37:48 am »
@arthanasios: If they were both so strong, they would likely be used more. Not an absolute truth of course, but more cause and effect. Remember pre nerf shard of focus? Was all over the place. But leaving that alone now.

Your right, antimatter can't do what TU does. But that is because they accomplish completely different tasks. One provides more damage, one flips a source of damage to healing. Frequently negating 2 sources.

Lobo isn't splashed more because there is pretty much always a better option. In rainbows? Vampire dagger, arsenic, or discord are all better in most cases. In duos? Could make an argument in some, but most of the time you won't see it being used all that much even then.
 



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Offline iDaireTopic starter

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Re: General Things https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55156.msg1148699#msg1148699
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 09:24:54 pm »
Lobo isn't splashed more because there is pretty much always a better option.
There isn't really a better option. Removing a creature's skill is always a positive thing in my book. However, I believe Lobo isn't splashed more because the damage is pathetic and it is much more used because of the skill. The skill of Lobotomizer is not that good. People would most definitely use Lobotomizer more if its damage was raised . Therefore, in my opinion Lobotomizer isn't used has much because the damage is pathetic.

 

anything
blarg: