General Things

[ARTHANASIOS]

@omegareaper:

1) The very fact you brought SoFree and SoSac in order to convience me that PU is NOT the strongest card in the game shows how overpowered PU actually is.

2) Even without Dims, Lobo negates Psion's sole weakness versus reflection, it completely ruins every creature with skill and their deck synnergies and most creatures are almost useless without their skill. Nymphs and NT decks are ruined, Pharaoh decks are ruined, FFQ decks are ruined, Hope decks are slowly but steadily ruined, Mitosis decks are ruined, momentum ruined, otyugh ruined, maxwell ruined, armagio ruined, every grower is ruined, scorpions are ruined, vampirism ruined and the list still goes... The only thing it doesn't really care are adrenalined creatures (Adrenaline isn't Loboed) and big hitters like dragons; oh, you played an adrenalined creature or a dragon against mono-Aether, your creature has just been TUed.

[iDaire]

@omegareaper:

1) The very fact you brought SoFree and SoSac in order to convience me that PU is NOT the strongest card in the game shows how overpowered PU actually is.

2) Even without Dims, Lobo negates Psion's sole weakness versus reflection, it completely ruins every creature with skill and their deck synnergies and most creatures are almost useless without their skill. Nymphs and NT decks are ruined, Pharaoh decks are ruined, FFQ decks are ruined, Hope decks are slowly but steadily ruined, Mitosis decks are ruined, momentum ruined, otyugh ruined, maxwell ruined, armagio ruined, every grower is ruined, scorpions are ruined, vampirism ruined and the list still goes... The only thing it doesn't really care are adrenalined creatures (Adrenaline isn't Loboed) and big hitters like dragons; oh, you played an adrenalined creature or a dragon against mono-Aether, your creature has just been TUed.

I never mentioned parallel universe or lobotomizer to be overpowered because many people would agree they aren't along with mindgate. If lobotomizeris overpowered, Ulitharid and Water Aether monster are as well. PU can be overpowered but its cost blocks most decks from using it in an overpowered manner. So these cards are not even powerful. If it were mass lobotomization, I would agree with you. But for now, they are well under 9000.

That being said I would like to address your previous post. I think it would be a great idea to switch MorningStar and Lobotomizer's elements with each others. It would make aether less overpowered and give light a buff, what it really needs. But I feel as though your new costs for PU come from your dislike for PU. Let us not forget Fractal does a similar job! 9|8 would seem much better balanced against other spells of the same category. But I really like your Morningstar idea.

Spoiler for Hidden:

So... How long do you want my speech of how life isn't UP?

I've said it countless times, and gotten people to get sick of my arguing.

Life isn't UP. No matter what you say.

EDIT: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements. I will explain that life has one of the most, if not, THE most cost efficient creature in the game: giant frog (5|3 for 2 quanta. That's 2.5 attack for 1 quanta with 1.5 health for each point of quanta). With that, I would explain that you are wrong with the best card being life, as well as how the elements world would be incredibly different if life wasn't in it. As well as counter the statement as a whole.

Some obvious things first:
Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway.

Yet life has an extremely obvious best card, heal.

What? Seriously, what??? Where the hell did you come to that conclusion? Adrenaline for instance, can turn a 3 attack creature into a 12 attack creature for 4 quanta (3 upped). Mitosis is one of 2 cards in the game that can consistently produce a chosen creature. The other being fractal. I can hear you saying that fractal is obviously better than mitosis. Your first statement about aether being OP agrees with that. That alone makes that statement redundant. As I previously said, giant frog is the one of the best cost to stat ratio. It really does depend on the deck. A stall, of course I'm going to freaking include heals. If it's a speedbow, it would depend on the rest of the deck. Seriously, where the hell did you get the impression that healis the best card in life?

I appreciate your speech.
First of all, in all card games, when have you ever heard of a card set that has to run with another card set in order to truly be effective besides the card sets meant to run side by side (Shields, Weapons, Spells, Traps, Field Spells, etc.)?

: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements

What you just told me is Life has to be paired with another element in order to truly be effective.

Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway

Again, here you have stated how life has to be paired with another element in order to be effective. If I can't use life by itself or in a duo effectively and I have to splash cards from other elements to give it what it doesn't have, it just proves how incomplete life is. Not trashing it. Just stating details from what you have told me.

As for giant frog and horned frog being better, that still supports my point that the other elements don't have a clear cut best card and life does. Also, in most decks, what would I choose? A frog with three attack and three HP? Or a card that can help me survive longer and save my life in some situations? Yes I see your reasoning. The cost to attack ratio and basic stats of horned frog gives it a higher rating than heal. But between horned frog and heal, many more people would roll with heal. Adrenaline? The card that can only work for creatures less than 5 Atk effectively? Sir, no. Most of the cards have to be thwarted into another elementin order to actually be used. Proof? Mono Life is a terrible deck. And what's with the obvious link to light?  It's as if Life was just meant to be one giant synergy.

What I hear you saying is that life is UP because it combos well with other elements.

HEY EVERYONE! GRABOID IS UP! IT USES 2 ELEMENTS, IT MUST BE UP! Buff graboid plox

That doesn't make sense. Graboid uses another element while according to you, life is just one huge synergy due to the fact it works under average on it's own. Though life has no PC or Proper CC, heed my other reasonings. The alchemy card of this element can't work effectively on most creatures from other elements except life since life has rather weak creatures for a rather great cost. The shields in this element are too expensive to add them into a deck that doesn't favor life. No creatures except the dragon go above 5 attack without the alchemy card. Which state the creatures are dependent on a spell card to actually haul in some damage. There is a lot wrong with life and it is simply incomplete. Also, life somehow thematically runs poison. Just saying.

[ARTHANASIOS]

@deathreign3:
 Mind Flayer is a really good creature which finds its place within many competitive rainbows, but the fact it is a creature makes it much easier to deal with. Lobo is a perm and PC is rare.
 A 9|8 cost of PU would be fair I think.

[omegareaper7]

@omegareaper:

1) The very fact you brought SoFree and SoSac in order to convience me that PU is NOT the strongest card in the game shows how overpowered PU actually is.

2) Even without Dims, Lobo negates Psion's sole weakness versus reflection, it completely ruins every creature with skill and their deck synnergies and most creatures are almost useless without their skill. Nymphs and NT decks are ruined, Pharaoh decks are ruined, FFQ decks are ruined, Hope decks are slowly but steadily ruined, Mitosis decks are ruined, momentum ruined, otyugh ruined, maxwell ruined, armagio ruined, every grower is ruined, scorpions are ruined, vampirism ruined and the list still goes... The only thing it doesn't really care are adrenalined creatures (Adrenaline isn't Loboed) and big hitters like dragons; oh, you played an adrenalined creature or a dragon against mono-Aether, your creature has just been TUed.

I brought in the shards to show extremes. PU still isn't on the higher end of things in my opinion. Not when things like graboid, one of the most universal creatures is still around. Or stuff like fractal, which again, gives unmatched versatility, seeing as it allows aether to duo fine with any element. Or even antimatter for control. Being able to trade one card to negate 2 cards worth of damage if used wisely is amazing.

As for the lack of dime shield, yes, aether would still be very strong. However, it wouldn't be nearly as threatening. With no real defense, psiontal becomes much less of an issue. It isn't fast enough to push down rushes without help. And yes, lobo is a very strong card, but most of those cards that you mentioned can also be dealt with by something like owls eye or even eternity. The former of which also gets rid of there damage instead of leaving them on the field.

[ARTHANASIOS]

@Omegarepaer: Aether doesn't need Fractal and/or Dims to rush, especially upped. Phase Recluses with Psions along with some utility cards can do the job fairly well.

 Antimatter is a very good spell, but not as good as TU. If your opponent has no creatures, can you still use Antimatter effectively? Only if you play something like Adrenastaves or Adrenascorpions. On the other hand, TU is useful at almost every fricking situation and deck. If your opponent has no creatures to TU, you can TU your own creatures. If your opponent has better creatures than yours, you can TU them instead. Antimatter offers you heal but it doesn't offer you damage to finish off your opponent (except for certain cases like Vampires or SoSac). TU can turn your opponent's greatest hitter into a instakill, especially if spammed multiple times per turn. It is the spell with by far the greatest versatility in the game, this is not debatable except if you can bring another card that works so awesomely as both a buff and a CC.
 Graboid is a creature and I would prefer to compare TU with other spells instead of creatures. But since you brought it, what spell is Graboid's best friend and greatest foe? Antimatter? But if you Antimatter a Shrieker it can burrow itself and effectively reduce your healing and I think no circumstance where Antimatter could aid as a buff for Shrieker (SoSac excluded). On the other hand, there are few things as sweet as TUing your opponent's Elite Shrieker. But you can even TU your very own Shrieker as a form of buff.
 Moreover, while Antimatter mess up with only the creature's attack, TU messes with everying; it gives you an entire new creature and if that creature has an active ability and you have the quanta to activate it, you also gain an extra skill usable at will. So mamy ways to abuse Paraller Universe with so many different deck archtypes and so many different elements.
 About Lobo, yes, there is Eternity and Owl's Eyes, but how splashable these weapon are? Both are quite expensive with a quite expensive activating cost. On the other hand, Electrocutor is so splashable with such a low cost for a weapon with an activated avbility and such a low-cost active ability which can even be fueled exclusively by a Mark of Aether (upped at least) and it can hit the table so early in the game. It can negate early Otys, Squids, SoFos... The low cost in combination with a CC ability makes Lobo a really deadly weapon.

[iDaire]

Woah. Someone hates Electrocutor and Twin Universe.
Yes, there is no counter but to nerf twin universe we forget is to disrupt 17%(Guess) of the decks in the game. Electrocutor can't break the game. It's barely enough power and overall under Shard of Sacrifice, which is under Shard of Focus, making it average powered, if not, slightly powerful. It is susceptible to PC in the highest and there is only a minimal chance for it to become immterialized. How many Earth/Aether duos do you ever see? Please don't throw up an image of a deck no one ever seen before. I get it takes the skills off of creatures but it is either played before or after enemy creatures come out. If it is played before, most players account for it in summoning their creatures and summon creatures simultaneously to avoid losing the skill power of all of them. If played afterwards, it is a target for PC. What you post, you act as if there is no summoning sickness/PC/Pulverizer/Butterfly Effect in the game. There are 6 ways to counter permanents. Steal, Deflagration, Pulverizer, Butterfly Effect, Effective Quanta Denial, and Effective Hand Control. Steal and Deflagration run in almost every deck, and rainbows are almost the entire meta of this game right now so don't act as if there is no permanent control in this game. This game has too much permanent control. In fact, let's remove all of it! (Joke)
An effective nerf to parallel universe is having the unupgraded version produce half the stats. This doesn't completely change PU and renders TU more powerful.

Omega is right about Lobotomizer not being as powerful without Dim. Dim as a MUCH greater impact on Aether than Lobotomizer. So does Fractal. If we replaced Dim and Fractal in Aether, I guarantee you, everyone on EtG woulddrop their keyboards and go "I'm done with Aether." However, a nerf is needed for dimensional shield.

I might of contradicted myself at some point. What I am saying is, Lobotomizer isn't as overpowered as you think and doesn't carry as much as an impact Dimensional Shield, Fractal, Lightning, and Psion carry on EtG. Aether can live without Lobotomizer. Aether will starve without Dimensional Shield. Which is why we need to Nerf it. Lobotomizer is overshadowed by the more powerful cards in Aether in my opinion. Since Aether is overpowered, nerfing most of the card should be in the right order.

I daresay, nerfing phase dragon from 13|8 doesn't make it that much less powered really.

[omegareaper7]

@arthanasios: I didn't say it need them to rush. I only mentioned psiontal. Without them though, they are honestly lacking behind other elements simply because they have no good heavy hitters.

Antimatter not being better then TU is completely opinionated. I would rather get rid of two dragons then give myself one. Pretty much no deck is going to TU a shrieker, barring speedbows of course(crazy versatile after all). It would be better in most cases to just play another graboid or run cheaper control. lobo is splashed into nearly no decks, aether duos aside. But as mentioned, aether duos very easily with other elements mostly due to fractal. I have pretty much never seen a lobo splash anywhere. Mindflayer is much more common to splash into things. And waiting until turn 5 to lobo something MIGHT be workable unupped, not at all upped though.

[kirbystar]

I totally agree that the  is an overpowered element.

Just remember how many times you lost just because the dimension shield has blocked all attacks?
I felt disappointed with that many times although I use steal in this situation which give a slight chance to win.
Great post that worth to be discussed.

[ARTHANASIOS]

You can remain loyal to your opinions, I remain loyal to mine. I don't hate TU and Lobo and I don't think Dims doesn't need a nerf but I think Lobo and TU are more powerful than the rest of Aether cards due to their great versatility; and versatility is power at many cases. However...

 I find the statement "rainbows dominate the meta" false (there are many awesome monos and duos too) and the fact most of bring PC doesn't change the fact there are only 6 cards with actual PC in EtG (Deflag, Steal, Puvly, BE, SoFo) of which BE is rarely seen. The fact Mind Flayer is splashed instead of Lobo at rainbows it is probably because they many wish to fill their weapon slot with another kind of weapon or because they have already enough CC cards. Still, Mind Flayer's common appearance at shows the power of Lobotomization skill. Also, Lobo is not splashed very often because the community has yet to notice its OPness.

 Antimatter, once again, counters one thing; it is an awesome counter but it still can't match what TU can do. TUing your own Shrieker was just an example. Btw, TU can be even splashed at decks and it works extremely well, though it is a little expensive.

 Anyway, the more people think like you, the better for me. ( *ALLCAPS makes evil War schemes )
 

 

[Espithel]

If we go by duplicates...

If you antimatter a shrieker, it will take 2 more shriekers to get back on track in terms of damage. That is a lot, given how antimatter is the alchemy card, which means purple nymph.

To be honest, I'd rather just play a duplicate of (Card here) than TU. I do not share the opinion that TU is powerful. At all. >:|

Aether does, however, set the standard on so many things.

[ARTHANASIOS]

* Dublicate of a creature like Dragon? Paying 10 or more while you can have a dragon for 7 ?
* You can effectively run 12 copies of a card with PU (or you can PU your opponent's creature if stronger).
* Buffs anyone? PUing an Adrenalined Momentumed creature? A flying weapon? A multi-blessed Pegasus? Just a few examples...
* OTKs anyone?

[Tiko]

A different line of thought regarding the elements in question:

Just an idea, but.. what would happen (first, without touching any of the above discussed matters) if both Dim Shield and Thorn's playcost would simply be 'swapped'? Both un/upped of course.
I think simple changes like that could turn the overall balance of power to feel a little bit more fair for everyone - without breaking any of the current (well known, and some well designed) thematics.

Sorry for interrupting.