General Things

[iDaire]

General Things
General things about Elements that make it what it is. What is wrong with Elements. What is done right with Elements. How is Elements a great game overall? How can Elements be improved and why should it be improved? In a thread. Let's begin talking.

No doubt everyone who has read this thread already and has replied to this thread has seen the previous iteration of this thread. Most of the people who have replied to this thread were evidently upset about the previous version of this thread and were, in a sense, in general disagreement about the things that were said. Before you continue reading, I will advise you that the two major points of the previous version of the thread remain paramount. So if you felt offended at what was said before or what will be said now, I please ask you not to rage at me after reading. I give plenty warnings now and if you rage at me in the future, I will not care.

If it is the same with everyone, I will begin with what I feel everyone thinks are the negative aspects of Elements or what currently brings the meta-game or regular gameplay down. Of course as stated previously, two major viewpoints that I stated before are still paramount today, and in hindsight, they were explained horribly and were just thrown down there lazily with very little justification as to why they were true. This time, I will critically analyze these aspects. Prepare for a long read. If you are lazy or have a short attention span, you may read the summaries left at the end of each viewpoint though you will not be getting what I am fully saying.

[dragonsdemesne]

If we redid Elements, knowing what we do now, I think fractal in Life would actually be a good thing.  I think it would be too drastic of a change to make now, though.

The immortal thing also bugs me, but I don't really like the solutions you have.  I've always thought it weird that area spells couldn't hit immortal creatures.  (pandemonium, rain of fire, dry spell, etc)  I think that would help somewhat.

edit: On second thought, having immortal creatures hit by area spells would probably make stall decks even stronger, and I think we need to go the other way around, to make creature decks stronger.

[RootRanger]

+1 to everything said by dragonsdemesne

[iDaire]

Maybe have certain creature skills target immortals.
I already said Paradox but perhaps Freeze and Devour should also target immortals since it would bring more usability to Arctic Squid, Otyugh, and Freeze, some of the cards you don't see very much. Changes to Elements should emphasize making cards that aren't used so much more usable in my opinion.

If we redid Elements, knowing what we do now, I think fractal in Life would actually be a good thing.  I think it would be too drastic of a change to make now, though.

The immortal thing also bugs me, but I don't really like the solutions you have.  I've always thought it weird that area spells couldn't hit immortal creatures.  (pandemonium, rain of fire, dry spell, etc)  I think that would help somewhat.

edit: On second thought, having immortal creatures hit by area spells would probably make stall decks even stronger, and I think we need to go the other way around, to make creature decks stronger.

If vanilla creatures were slightly buffed and creatures with skills were slightly nerfed, would that help?

[Zawadx]

Immortal and Phase Dragon are really really expensive as a cost for immortality, and they can be easily outraced. I don't think they are a problem.

As for Psion, you can kill it by normal CC what about those occasions where you can't afford to waste that lightning, shockwave or any other CC on a creature like this?

CC means creature control, and so it can be applied to all creatures. Yes, using it on a Damselfly or a Photon doesn't give you advantage, but using it on a psion does. In fact, if your opponent is playing a deck like Psiontal your CC can stop his fractal (unless he's careful). If you don't use CC on Psions in a psion-based deck, what will you use it on?

- Jezebel is uncounterable without his counter

Jezzie will mind you changing her gender And she is extremely counterable; RoL/Hope stands moderate chances against her, Pdials should work wonders (I haven't played with it, so can't be sure) and VDB just stomps it. Seriously, I haven't grinded long with VDB and Jezzie has given me over 10k worth of cards~

- Discord's Scrambling Effects got it banned from many PvP events. All it does is slow down most duos and monos. I believeit shouldn't be banned for that fact.

Discord is generally banned in events where rainbows are weaker, as the meta is centered around monos and duos. The thing is, Discord pretty much stops the opponent for 2-3 turns, which is enough to win in PvP.

- Game could use a way to preserve multiple effects on a creature. If I add momentum, adrenaline, and butterfly effect on a creature for a total of 12 quanta, one quanta shouldn't really be able to take it off. But this is very trivial and only would have a slight effect if one were to remove this functionality.

That is the principle: CC is supposed to give the caster a tempo advantage (here the caster makes a 4-1 trade). Which is why it's always wise to not put all your eggs in one basket.

Also, I personally would love a buff to vanilla creatures (or near vanilla creatures with useless skills who aren't attackers).

[dawn to dusk]

So... How long do you want my speech of how life isn't UP?

I've said it countless times, and gotten people to get sick of my arguing.

Life isn't UP. No matter what you say.

EDIT: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements. I will explain that life has one of the most, if not, THE most cost efficient creature in the game: giant frog (5|3 for 2 quanta. That's 2.5 attack for 1 quanta with 1.5 health for each point of quanta). With that, I would explain that you are wrong with the best card being life, as well as how the elements world would be incredibly different if life wasn't in it. As well as counter the statement as a whole.

Some obvious things first:
Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway.

Yet life has an extremely obvious best card, heal.

What? Seriously, what??? Where the hell did you come to that conclusion? Adrenaline for instance, can turn a 3 attack creature into a 12 attack creature for 4 quanta (3 upped). Mitosis is one of 2 cards in the game that can consistently produce a chosen creature. The other being fractal. I can hear you saying that fractal is obviously better than mitosis. Your first statement about aether being OP agrees with that. That alone makes that statement redundant. As I previously said, giant frog is the one of the best cost to stat ratio. It really does depend on the deck. A stall, of course I'm going to freaking include heals. If it's a speedbow, it would depend on the rest of the deck. Seriously, where the hell did you get the impression that healis the best card in life?

[serprex]

@d2d on heal being best: probably arena farmers that pack a couple heals to EM

[iDaire]

So... How long do you want my speech of how life isn't UP?

I've said it countless times, and gotten people to get sick of my arguing.

Life isn't UP. No matter what you say.

EDIT: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements. I will explain that life has one of the most, if not, THE most cost efficient creature in the game: giant frog (5|3 for 2 quanta. That's 2.5 attack for 1 quanta with 1.5 health for each point of quanta). With that, I would explain that you are wrong with the best card being life, as well as how the elements world would be incredibly different if life wasn't in it. As well as counter the statement as a whole.

Some obvious things first:
Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway.

Yet life has an extremely obvious best card, heal.

What? Seriously, what??? Where the hell did you come to that conclusion? Adrenaline for instance, can turn a 3 attack creature into a 12 attack creature for 4 quanta (3 upped). Mitosis is one of 2 cards in the game that can consistently produce a chosen creature. The other being fractal. I can hear you saying that fractal is obviously better than mitosis. Your first statement about aether being OP agrees with that. That alone makes that statement redundant. As I previously said, giant frog is the one of the best cost to stat ratio. It really does depend on the deck. A stall, of course I'm going to freaking include heals. If it's a speedbow, it would depend on the rest of the deck. Seriously, where the hell did you get the impression that healis the best card in life?

I appreciate your speech.
First of all, in all card games, when have you ever heard of a card set that has to run with another card set in order to truly be effective besides the card sets meant to run side by side (Shields, Weapons, Spells, Traps, Field Spells, etc.)?

: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements

What you just told me is Life has to be paired with another element in order to truly be effective.

Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway

Again, here you have stated how life has to be paired with another element in order to be effective. If I can't use life by itself or in a duo effectively and I have to splash cards from other elements to give it what it doesn't have, it just proves how incomplete life is. Not trashing it. Just stating details from what you have told me.

As for giant frog and horned frog being better, that still supports my point that the other elements don't have a clear cut best card and life does. Also, in most decks, what would I choose? A frog with three attack and three HP? Or a card that can help me survive longer and save my life in some situations? Yes I see your reasoning. The cost to attack ratio and basic stats of horned frog gives it a higher rating than heal. But between horned frog and heal, many more people would roll with heal. Adrenaline? The card that can only work for creatures less than 5 Atk effectively? Sir, no. Most of the cards have to be thwarted into another elementin order to actually be used. Proof? Mono Life is a terrible deck. And what's with the obvious link to light?  It's as if Life was just meant to be one giant synergy.

[Fippe94]

Heal is the best card in Life? Damage opponent is usually a better choice than healing yourself, and if you are going with stall, continous healing are better than just a 20-hp oneshot spell. It's far from an obvious choice. And I honestly don't see the problem why all elements *has* to be good in Mono. With that said, Life does have a good mono, even if it can't deal with everything (Hint: No deck can).

[ARTHANASIOS]

I disagree about life being UP. Many elements lack PC. Every element has a short of CC, even Life and Light, in the form of Holy Light, but still.
There is an unupped monolife deck that can beat the most common unupped monoaether decks most of the time (which I am probably going to use at War, muhahaha).
Aether's OPness lies not to Dims or Fractals. They are both strong cards, but they do only a single thing, they take a big part of your hand and your deck (which, btw, must be built around them in order to function normally) and cost really a lot. Imho the broken Aether cards are Lobotomizer and Paraller Universe.

* Lobotomizer removes Psion's one and only weakness; reflective shields. Moreover, it removes Dim's most direct counter; Momentum. Honestly, Momentum must either become unlobotomizable (much like adrenaline) or Lobo should change element. Of course, it removes any other creature skill that may cause harm to aether with a very low price. In general, I think Lobo should be the Light's weapon and Morning Star the Aether's one.

* Twin Universe is an extremely powerful buff and CC at the same time and, imho, it is the most OP card in the game by far (second is, imho, Miracle). The buff feature (copying your own creature) works like an instant, single-turn Mitosis (actually, the famous deck Instosis was actually recreating the effect of multiple TUs played upon your Devonian Dragon in a single turn, but instead of TU it used the SoR&Mitosis combo) but it keeps the mother creature's active skill plus the daughter creature inheritis all the buffs the mother has! Sure, it also inherits the bad things, like poison, but who sane person is going to TU an antimattered creature for example? At worst, a TU used upon a creature of yours acts as a permanent Diving (2x attack). At best, it does more, much more...
 The true unfairness however, is in its CC feature (copying a creature of your opponent). At worst, it just forces your opponent to take as much damage as his/her TUed hitter deals (though Dims can be used to ensure the damage will be one-sided) but at best it can be easily combined with Lightning or other harmful CC to remove the hitter after it was TUed. After that, you can keep copying your opponent's creature by just copying the copy you own.
 Sure, it costs a lot, but the versatility of this card is unmatched and I still find it underpriced. The average TUed creature is going to have at least the attack power of a dragon, so it shoul cost about as much as a dragon cost (10 | 9 ).

[dawn to dusk]

Spoiler for Hidden:

So... How long do you want my speech of how life isn't UP?

I've said it countless times, and gotten people to get sick of my arguing.

Life isn't UP. No matter what you say.

EDIT: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements. I will explain that life has one of the most, if not, THE most cost efficient creature in the game: giant frog (5|3 for 2 quanta. That's 2.5 attack for 1 quanta with 1.5 health for each point of quanta). With that, I would explain that you are wrong with the best card being life, as well as how the elements world would be incredibly different if life wasn't in it. As well as counter the statement as a whole.

Some obvious things first:
Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway.

Yet life has an extremely obvious best card, heal.

What? Seriously, what??? Where the hell did you come to that conclusion? Adrenaline for instance, can turn a 3 attack creature into a 12 attack creature for 4 quanta (3 upped). Mitosis is one of 2 cards in the game that can consistently produce a chosen creature. The other being fractal. I can hear you saying that fractal is obviously better than mitosis. Your first statement about aether being OP agrees with that. That alone makes that statement redundant. As I previously said, giant frog is the one of the best cost to stat ratio. It really does depend on the deck. A stall, of course I'm going to freaking include heals. If it's a speedbow, it would depend on the rest of the deck. Seriously, where the hell did you get the impression that healis the best card in life?

I appreciate your speech.
First of all, in all card games, when have you ever heard of a card set that has to run with another card set in order to truly be effective besides the card sets meant to run side by side (Shields, Weapons, Spells, Traps, Field Spells, etc.)?

: I am very willing to pm you a detailed analysis of each card in life, and how they each interact with other elements

What you just told me is Life has to be paired with another element in order to truly be effective.

Life doesn't have PC or reliable CC. Sure. It can have that. How hard is it to splash in a few lightnings or deflags? Life has very cost efficient creatures so the quanta loss wouldn't be too great anyway

Again, here you have stated how life has to be paired with another element in order to be effective. If I can't use life by itself or in a duo effectively and I have to splash cards from other elements to give it what it doesn't have, it just proves how incomplete life is. Not trashing it. Just stating details from what you have told me.

As for giant frog and horned frog being better, that still supports my point that the other elements don't have a clear cut best card and life does. Also, in most decks, what would I choose? A frog with three attack and three HP? Or a card that can help me survive longer and save my life in some situations? Yes I see your reasoning. The cost to attack ratio and basic stats of horned frog gives it a higher rating than heal. But between horned frog and heal, many more people would roll with heal. Adrenaline? The card that can only work for creatures less than 5 Atk effectively? Sir, no. Most of the cards have to be thwarted into another elementin order to actually be used. Proof? Mono Life is a terrible deck. And what's with the obvious link to light?  It's as if Life was just meant to be one giant synergy.

What I hear you saying is that life is UP because it combos well with other elements.

HEY EVERYONE! GRABOID IS UP! IT USES 2 ELEMENTS, IT MUST BE UP! Buff graboid plox

[omegareaper7]

@arthanasios: I would very much disagree with PU being the strongest card in the game. Stuff like shard of freedom or even sacrifice are much stronger overall.

Also, you say lobo is one of aethers best card. But keep in mind, that without dime shield, lobo wouldn't be super amazing anyways. Still a very good card, but it wouldn't matter as much. Fractal also gives aether unmatched versatility.  Aether as a whole just has some of the best stuff.

Also, I disagree with life being underpowered as well. Not that it couldn't use some more cards to help it, but it does what it does fairly well. Duos just enhance an elements abilities.