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Offline GuntharTopic starter

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Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1178923#msg1178923
« on: February 10, 2015, 10:46:57 am »
In the arena is possible to select double draw for 20 skill points. Double draw means at each round two cards are drwn from the card pile. Which is quite strong and worth the 20 skill points alone.
But the double card drawing have another power of the card doubling. That means that each card in the deck is doubled, which is in my eye overpowered. This allows indirectly to have  up to twelve of a specific card in a deck.

Imagine a Pdial deck in double draw means it contains now 12 Novas,  12 Poisons, 12 Sundials  and so on. Or an aether deck with 12 phantasmal shields. Some decks are working with the card doubling much better than without it.

The request is now to remove the card doubling at double draw skill to enforce double draw decks to contain more cards from the standard card pool. And also not more of 6 of the same cards. Also it enforce the defender to put more cards in the deck to prevent deckout.

This allows for more deck strategies for the attacker.  And more variants for the defender.

Offline Chapuz

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1178925#msg1178925
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 12:04:15 pm »
Having double deck means that it's harder to get the cards it wants because there are also copes of the other cards.
Also, every good arena farmer has a way for bypassing shields and that's why 90% of the decks in gold and platinum don't use dimensional shields.
The AI has been balanced not to use more than 6 Shard of Sacrifices even if it has more in the double deck, that was a good balance. Sundials and dim shield aren't that powerful in AI decks
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Offline GuntharTopic starter

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179177#msg1179177
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 10:41:42 am »
The chance of getting a specific card is the same in a double draw deck. But because there are up to 12 cards of one type it can even happens that in a turn it is possible to draw two of the same card or drawing card 7 or up. Imagine being standing against 8 Devourers at round 4 being locked down on my side due never getting any quanta anymore. Or a stall deck with at least 8 miracles?

Many not so well working decks are working very well in double draw

A nice example is one of the Pdial decks.

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 715 715 718 718 718 718 718 718 71a 71a 72i 72i 72i 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7i6 7i6 7i6 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pk


It is even possible to remove the Physalias or working with DimShields (3x  :aether instead of  :death mark) as an Arena defender deck.

Some tests in the gold arena showed me an average win rate with my mono gravity deck against single draw decks of proximately 80%.
Against double draw decks it is around 35%. In the trainer I tested several different decks. Against single draws win rate between 60 and 100%. Against double draws never won above 60%.

I had also a PDial deck as defender in the gold arena: The deck won 75% of all games and many cards was not even being upped! It was a double draw deck.

An possible solution is: Double draw (aka Dexterity) costs 20 skills  without card doubling and 40 with card doubling.

Offline Chapuz

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179179#msg1179179
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 10:49:15 am »
Or maybe the idea of the 2x AI decks is finding a deck that counters a good portion of them?
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Offline Dm

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179183#msg1179183
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 11:58:14 am »
The idea is that it's hard. Like you said, with single draw you easily got to "80%"? Yeah, that's broken.

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179191#msg1179191
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 07:32:31 pm »
No. That would make double draw horribly broken. I don't want to fight 2x speed grabbows or rushes that have 2x the health as well, that is insane. At least with double decks there draws are consistent and not twice as fast.
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Offline GuntharTopic starter

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179238#msg1179238
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 12:17:20 pm »
The idea is that it's hard. Like you said, with single draw you easily got to "80%"? Yeah, that's broken.

I as an attacker never have or get double draw. Therefore it is meant that if the Arena AI deck have single draw it is much easier to win against it than vs. a double draw Arena AI deck. Players are constructing the decks but the AI plays it against attacking players. Winning up to 80% with a fully upped mono gravity deck vs. single draw gold arena decks is doable. Some wins are luck if I get a specific card (ex SoFo out before Lobotmizer or Discord) before the opponent get his specific card out.

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179239#msg1179239
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 12:48:40 pm »
The idea is that it's hard. Like you said, with single draw you easily got to "80%"? Yeah, that's broken.

I as an attacker never have or get double draw. Therefore it is meant that if the Arena AI deck have single draw it is much easier to win against it than vs. a double draw Arena AI deck. Players are constructing the decks but the AI plays it against attacking players. Winning up to 80% with a fully upped mono gravity deck vs. single draw gold arena decks is doable. Some wins are luck if I get a specific card (ex SoFo out before Lobotmizer or Discord) before the opponent get his specific card out.

Yes, I know all of that.

Did you miss my point entirely? I'm saying that it's too pathetically easy if there's no double draw.

Offline GuntharTopic starter

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179240#msg1179240
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 01:16:54 pm »
I did not miss your point. I did not even want double card drawing being removed. My thing is about the card doubling being very powerful.

The issue with double draw is that the cap between single and double draw with card doubling is very big and this for just 20 skill points. This is why I had recommended to add a step between.

Dexterity level 0 (disabled): Single draw.
Dexterity level 1: Double card drawing but no card doubling. (Cost 20 skill points) (optional if this is too expensive make it 15 skill points)
Dexterity level 2: Double card drawing with card doubling. (Cost 40 skill points) (optional if this is too expensive make it 30 skill points)

The listed deck above with one additional water pend I did used once as a defender Arena Deck with 3x mark and dexterity activated. But while no card was upped, it won 80% of the games.
The same deck fully upped as attacker in the trainer won only 25% against L40 decks.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 01:24:10 pm by Gunthar »

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179241#msg1179241
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 01:25:08 pm »
The fact is that a 30-card deck with double draw is more powerful than a 60-card deck (30 duplicated) with double draw. No one would ever make a non-stall deck with a duplicated deck, and now platinum is powerful enough.
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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179244#msg1179244
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 01:57:35 pm »
A 30 card deck with double draw can deck out quite fast. There needs to be some test running to see what is really stronger. With or without card doubling. Ok a time reversal deck can probably benefit of the smaller deck. Some decks are certainly benefitting from card doubling.

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Re: Double draw modification request (remove card doubling) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57567.msg1179248#msg1179248
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 02:36:03 pm »
A 30 card deck with double draw can deck out quite fast. There needs to be some test running to see what is really stronger. With or without card doubling. Ok a time reversal deck can probably benefit of the smaller deck. Some decks are certainly benefitting from card doubling.
Doesn't matter if they deck out fast, 10 turns is more then enough to kill and limits deck building even more. As only dials is really ever going to be viable then. 

When you double draw, you double speed immediately after the first turn. We don't need plat decks able to win consistently in under 5 or even 4 turns.
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