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Elements the Game => Game Suggestions and Feedback => Topic started by: the Sage on August 16, 2010, 12:07:14 pm

Title: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 16, 2010, 12:07:14 pm
There are a few ultimate spell ideas, and they drain all quanta of a type (like miracle and fractal, but I'm sure we'll see others).
I think rainbow decks do well enough as it is, so why not alter the mechanic to drain ALL quanta instead of all quanta of that type?
Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: King of doom on August 16, 2010, 12:17:31 pm
There are a few ultimate spell ideas, and they drain all quanta of a type (like miracle and stone skin, and I'm sure we'll see others).
I think rainbow decks do well enough as it is, so why not alter the mechanic to drain ALL quanta instead of all quanta of that type?
Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.
stone skin doesn't drain all of your earth qaunta
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 16, 2010, 04:25:19 pm
Thanks for your opinion on this idea. (corrected)
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: trozman on August 16, 2010, 05:06:28 pm
For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.

Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)

Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.

Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).

Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.

If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage. ;)
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: guolin on August 16, 2010, 05:38:06 pm
For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.

Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)

Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.

Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).

Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.

If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage. ;)
...what's your point?

Rainbows shouldn't be able to use these spells, really. It seems like a good idea, though maybe a wee bit harsh.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 19, 2010, 02:01:08 pm
For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.
Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)
Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.
Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).
Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.
If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage. ;)
OK, say they both have 12 pillars. Rainbow can go ahead and play all he wants except light (11/12 of his cards) 3 quanta per type per turn, and will be able to afford miracle after 4 turns. And afterwards continue merrily on his way spamming shields, shards and creeps. Light will actually have to save a full turn of quantum production for miracle in advance. If he saves more, he will lose more as well.

My point is, these spells are supposed to be ULTIMATE. They do something really cool BUT drain all you have left. For a rainbow, the bonus is the same (often more considering synergies) but the penalty is only that you lose all you have left... of one of the twelve options you've got going at the same time. You play miracle AND can play 5 creatures the next turn. You fractal something AND you can still buff the resulting creeps on the same turn. I think rainbow is dodging much of the penalty of ultimate spells, without getting less benefit from these spells. I see this suggestion as a minor nerf for rainbow decks, which might actually need a bigger nerf IMHO.
Additionally, rainbow will often not have (or need) a large supply of a single quantum type. An ultimate fire card, for instance, would be disastrous for your fahrenheit and fire bolts. A rainbow deck: ah, what the hell, let's play doomsday (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11365.msg149675#msg149675) and see what happens, I have 160 hp anyway.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: wittyname6 on August 19, 2010, 02:16:48 pm
Rainbows are 4x less efficient than mono decks. A mono pillar can produce 1 quanta per turn which is all the person needs. Rainbows need 4 turns of equally distributed quanta to get one of each element. The spells use a lot of quanta so a rainbow user might have trouble getting enough to play it. Plus since it is so expensive and consumes all your quanta it essentially stops you from getting any other cards of that element.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: Bloodshadow on August 19, 2010, 07:41:55 pm
Is this an attempt to nerf Fractal? It's a bit too harsh to me.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: wittyname6 on August 20, 2010, 02:12:45 am
No, I'm saying I think fractal would be difficult to use effectively in rainbow decks. But I do think fractal should be nerfed
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: Krahhl on August 20, 2010, 04:10:58 am
Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.
How many people use fractal and miracle in a mono deck? They slow things down too much. If not rainbow, these decks are usually at least duo.

This won't make rainbowing harder, it will make it near impossible.

Rainbows have many advantages and disadvantages compared to a mono deck. Being able to use fractal or miracle and have quanta of other elements left is simply one of the advantages. Duo decks can do this anyway.

One of the disadvantages is that overall, a rainbow deck will need four pillars to get one quanta of any given element except the marked one. A mono deck only needs one. This means that while a rainbow can use cards of any element, they can only use cheap ones since quanta production is slower for each element.

If miracle and fractal were to set every number back to zero, it would take way too long to get enough quanta for anything. Even duo decks would be greatly hurt.


Besides, cards that cost multiple elements have been discussed. It's been concluded that the game code would require too much reworking to implement them anytime soon.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: Kuross on August 20, 2010, 04:20:54 am
Perhaps the spin here is to look at the reason fractal and miracle got hit with the nerf bat. They have a cost as a result of an epic effect that requires a hefty cost to play. Any card that requires that kind of drawback should be carefully reviewed to avoid further Fractal issues rather than look to put in more. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit and pursuing cards with epic costs/drawbacks would be cool, but I think one should carefully consider why it needs to have a drawback to be uses in the first place.

Maybe just thinking of cool, epic cards then scaling them back before sliding them into the card list might be better? Safer to have weaker cards that need upgrading rather than OP cards that need scaling back.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 20, 2010, 11:27:12 am
Is this an attempt to nerf Fractal? It's a bit too harsh to me.
Yes, it's an attempt to nerf fractal, miracle, and any future Ultimate spells for non-mono use.
So actually, it's an attempt to nerf rainbows mostly.
I suppose you could find an intermediate nerf that doesn't affect duo's as much, by saying it drains all  :aether /  :light / w/e and up to 5 quanta of every other type. that way rainbows still get hit hard(ish), but duo's will not be completely undermined.

Maybe just thinking of cool, epic cards then scaling them back before sliding them into the card list might be better? Safer to have weaker cards that need upgrading rather than OP cards that need scaling back.
I don't know... the mechanic of having a drain all quanta spell seems nice. I'd like to see one for every quantum type (preferably with the proposed modification).

How many people use fractal and miracle in a mono deck? They slow things down too much. If not rainbow, these decks are usually at least duo.
You're right, people don't. If you implement this rule, you could even think of lowering the base cost, making these spells more accessible to mono decks.

Besides, cards that cost multiple elements have been discussed. It's been concluded that the game code would require too much reworking to implement them anytime soon.
Ummm... It would still cost (require in order to play) the same. It would just also drain more. Since there is code for black hole, it shouldn't be that hard, methinks?

This won't make rainbowing harder, it will make it near impossible.
Are you saying you can hardly think of a working rainbow deck that does not rely on miracle and fractal? That seems like a rather unlikely statement.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: BluePriest on August 20, 2010, 03:49:40 pm
I dont think all the implications of this are being thought of. It will effect a lot more than the user. Eternal phoenix, Rainbow, Paradox AND miracle all use a "ultimate spell" where as RoL hope and CCYB are about the only anti decks that DO use them. It would make those 2 decks a lot weaker, where as all the other rainbows would be better, and the hard FGs suddenly became easier (miracle becomes even easier)
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 20, 2010, 03:51:47 pm
Don't forget about Morte!
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: Krahhl on August 20, 2010, 08:18:52 pm
Are you saying you can hardly think of a working rainbow deck that does not rely on miracle and fractal? That seems like a rather unlikely statement.
My mistake, I meant rainbowing with fractal and miracle. Of course, decks that do not use these cards would not be affected.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: trozman on August 22, 2010, 02:50:39 pm
Additionally, rainbow will often not have (or need) a large supply of a single quantum type. An ultimate fire card, for instance, would be disastrous for your fahrenheit and fire bolts. A rainbow deck: ah, what the hell, let's play doomsday (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11365.msg149675#msg149675) and see what happens, I have 160 hp anyway.
Wait wait, you're linking to your OWN card idea to show why rainbows need to be nerfed?

Uhhh, sorry, no, that just means your card idea IS A CRAPPY UNBALANCED CARD IDEA.

Sorry, I'm not going to bother making a card that uses 60 of each quanta type and then say "see? rainbows are underpowered, they can't even use that card easily!" :))
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: PuppyChow on August 22, 2010, 06:50:25 pm
This nerf to ultimate spells would make fractal completely unviable. Thus, it wouldn't be an ultimate spell at all. It would be the spell nobody uses. Miracle would be less affected, I think, but I dislike the idea simply because it goes too far with fractal.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 23, 2010, 04:25:53 pm
This nerf to ultimate spells would make fractal completely unviable. Thus, it wouldn't be an ultimate spell at all. It would be the spell nobody uses. Miracle would be less affected, I think, but I dislike the idea simply because it goes too far with fractal.
Hmmm, I hadn't considered that using fractal would leave you unable to play the creatures you just took into your hand. You're right that that would be overnerfing fractal (even though it could do with some). Can we find a way to make this work?

Wait wait, you're linking to your OWN card idea to show why rainbows need to be nerfed?
Uhhh, sorry, no, that just means your card idea IS A CRAPPY UNBALANCED CARD IDEA.
Sorry, I'm not going to bother making a card that uses 60 of each quanta type and then say "see? rainbows are underpowered, they can't even use that card easily!" :))
I can see your point about referring to my own ideas, but you're taking it a bit too far. Aside from commenting on your poor forum etiquette, I would like to invite you to provide your first valid argument against Bomb|Doomsday (but please do so in the appropriate thread)

My point here (the validity of which does not rely on the example I used) is that a lot of ideas for ultimate spells would be more interesting/balanced, if it weren't for the fact that rainbows can use them all (on the same turn) with actually lower cost than monos. As I expect we will see more such cards, I used an idea for one as an example.
I used my own idea at the time, because it was while writing that card idea that I came up with this point; realizing that draining all quanta would be better balance for both this card idea and several others. It was therefore the first such idea that came to my mind. The same goes for other drain all ideas:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6613.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9282.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10236.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4424.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5659.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5669.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5219.html

(Note: though I agree that referring to my own example was sub-optimal, allow me to point out that your hypothetical '60 of each quantum type' is easier for a rainbow than for a non-rainbow)
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: Krahhl on August 23, 2010, 10:46:59 pm
I think fractal and miracle are fine as they are.

The main point of them draining your remaining quanta isn't so that you can't use any aether/light card that turn, but so that you can't stockpile a lot of quanta and then use fractal and miracle multiple turns in a row. The god Miracle can spam miracle because he produces over 12 light quanta per turn, but many rainbow decks with eight pillars would be lucky to produce 3.

Draining all quanta would hurt any deck using these cards that's not mono. This would include Decay, Eternal Phoenix, even Rainbow. And as you have said, no mono uses fractal or miracle anyway.

If you can think of a more reasonable way to nerf them, feel free to suggest it. But I think they have been balanced well in design.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: trozman on August 24, 2010, 03:08:34 am
You're suggesting a nerf or fundamental change in game mechanics (because you're not just talking about Miracle or Fractal, you're talking about all future 'ultimate' spells, indefinitely) because you are seeing a lot of ultimate cards in the card ideas. If this was really an appropriate change, then feel free to suggest it to all those people who submitted ultimate card ideas. Instead of going through the vetted card idea submission process, you're trying to bypass it through a game suggestion. (After all, every ultimate card could just say "drain all quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta"...). Though I'm sure you'll find it would be highly unpopular to the card idea submitters, just as you're finding most people in this thread find it to be a poor idea. So if you're going to talk about poor forum etiquette, yours is likewise lacking, because your suggestion itself fits with the card ideas process. ;)

After all, if people don't like this idea, they could always create a card idea that is "drain 499 aether quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta" so it's no longer an 'ultimate' spell.. which is silly but it just goes to show - rather than trying to make a systematic change, this should just be 2 posts in "Nerf This Card!" and then replies in the card idea section.
Title: Re: Changing ultimate spells
Post by: the Sage on August 24, 2010, 10:17:38 pm
After all, if people don't like this idea, they could always create a card idea that is "drain 499 aether quanta" instead of "drain all aether quanta" so it's no longer an 'ultimate' spell.. which is silly but it just goes to show - rather than trying to make a systematic change, this should just be 2 posts in "Nerf This Card!" and then replies in the card idea section.
Yeah, it may apply more to some ultimate card ideas than others. You could make some drain all, and others drain all of one type. But isn't everyone an OCD-nut who needs to have the same system card for all quanta? I can hardly stand the fact that only  :aether and  :light have them as is!
blarg: