Poll

Please check all hours that would work for you as the deadline for each phase.

0 GMT
8 (5.7%)
1 GMT
7 (5%)
2 GMT
7 (5%)
3 GMT
7 (5%)
4 GMT
7 (5%)
5 GMT
4 (2.8%)
6 GMT
4 (2.8%)
7 GMT
4 (2.8%)
8 GMT
4 (2.8%)
9 GMT
5 (3.5%)
10 GMT
5 (3.5%)
11 GMT
4 (2.8%)
12 GMT
3 (2.1%)
13 GMT
2 (1.4%)
14 GMT
3 (2.1%)
15 GMT
4 (2.8%)
16 GMT
3 (2.1%)
17 GMT
5 (3.5%)
18 GMT
9 (6.4%)
19 GMT
9 (6.4%)
20 GMT
11 (7.8%)
21 GMT
9 (6.4%)
22 GMT
9 (6.4%)
23 GMT
8 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: August 09, 2020, 10:29:25 pm

Poll

What kind of setup do you want to see next?

Run the standard setup with minor adjustments.
7 (26.9%)
Run a closed setup designed by Linkcat.
8 (30.8%)
Run a game with all Fate Eggs.
7 (26.9%)
Run an even sillier game just to mess around.
4 (15.4%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: August 09, 2020, 10:47:45 pm

Poll

What to do about Who's Online?

Allow free use of it.
9 (52.9%)
Ban use of it during the last couple hours of each phase.
3 (17.6%)
Ban use of it completely.
5 (29.4%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 09, 2020, 11:26:23 pm

Poll

Who played the best mafia?

Linkcat
1 (2.5%)
TheonlyrealBeef
16 (40%)
shockcannon
0 (0%)
PlayerOa
1 (2.5%)
iancudorinmarian
0 (0%)
worldwideweb3
1 (2.5%)
MasterWalks
0 (0%)
andretimpa
0 (0%)
dawn_to_dusk
0 (0%)
kaempfer13
6 (15%)
Submachine
0 (0%)
killsdazombies
0 (0%)
Coffeeditto
7 (17.5%)
rob77dp
3 (7.5%)
DoubleCapitals
1 (2.5%)
Calindu
0 (0%)
Naii_the_Baf
0 (0%)
moehrpi13
4 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Voting closed: August 09, 2020, 10:51:45 pm

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Offline shockcannon

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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299845#msg1299845
« Reply #300 on: July 09, 2020, 03:32:38 pm »
Spoiler for I am Rita:

1.) I am Rita.

It may be suspicious to say this, but if I were anyone else I would basically take this to mean that shock is a confirmed town. I'm crazy, but I'm not that stupid and I do appreciate winning. Targeting a random town, even if I know their potential role due to my mafia teammates is still a bad play as mafia because the town would obviously call me out as kaempf has done, causing attention to be brought to myself when players already want to lynch me before the game starts. Not to mention, I would probably have mafia teammates telling me not to use my role, especially on someone who it would work on, and someone (kaempf) who will likely be vocal about the effect.

Sure, I guess both kaempf and I could both be mafia. If you truly believe that though, it would be better to lynch kaempf first, because lynching me and flipping town doesn't clear kaempf as town. On the other hand, if we assume the only real scenario where I'm mafia as Rita is if kaempf is also mafia, then lynching kaempf first will either clear me, or convict me (yes there's a scenario where I'm town and kaempf is mafia, but in that case we still kill a mafia).


Now, if I was Rita, why would I use my role N0? I've thought a lot about this, whether or not I am actually Rita. In my opinion, using Rita N0 has way more upside than downside despite you all bandwagoning Torb's "logical" plan for each role:

- Because everyone thinks using Rita is so scummy, and since using Rita as mafia doesn't actually have too much upside without knowing everyone's role, using Rita N0 is about as town of a move as it gets, which can basically confirm someone as town if it is successful enough for the recipient to confirm its use (since you all are so keen on getting reads day 1)

- The only real info roles Rita could be interfering negatively with are Theresa and Durandal. HOWEVER, there are 3 potential mafia Rita could interfere with, which is a positive outcome, especially if the mafia hit has core of death. AND THEN, we have to factor in the fact that Theresa and Durandal could be roles given to mafia. The way I see it, it's roughly 50/50, so no net gain or loss compared to not using the ability as Rita

- I personally don't believe in N0 reads being any what accurate in determining whether someone is a cop or not. If someone has hinted so obviously that they are cop, then they're just helping mafia anyways. With that said, Rita interfering with Fu Hua has no net gain or loss, because Fu Hua is essentially guessing between all 18 players anyways, so having it protect Rita N0 is not any worse than who Fu Hua was originally protecting. If anything, Fu Hua protects the most useless role on N0 while still maintaining the same probability of protecting a town and leaving all 17 other players open to protection that next night once there is more info

- The rest of the roles being interfered with really aren't a big deal in my opinion. Honestly, probably a win to hit Yae Sakura, because Yae probably shouldn't be roleblocking anyways, since Yae actually stops roles from working and 3 of them, whereas Rita only redirects 1. Some roles, its annoying the individual players to get redirected to Rita, but honestly shouldn't make a difference in the outcome of the game compared to potentially hitting the previously mentioned roles.

So basically if I rolled Rita, then yes, I would definitely use it N0 because I actually see the upside beyond the superficial "downside" that everyone else sees. You all need to think outside the box more. If you're so set on SOLVING THE GAME THROUGH LOGIC, then we should all just role reveal now and lynch anyone who doesn't follow it, including me. It's 15 town and 3 mafia, and there are more than enough useful roles to figure out who's mafia or who is lying about their actions before we all get NKed. If you all want to role reveal and solve the game now, I'll happily follow along. If we're expected to follow Torb's "initial thoughts" on role usage, then I might deviate according to my own opinions.

Spoiler for I am not Rita:

I have also thought a lot about this scenario, regardless of if I'm Rita or not. One potential scenario involves mafia Rita and probably another mafia role that either allows them to block the Rita target or give them knowledge of the Rita target to ensure Rita doesn't die (which is actually pretty unlikely to happen). In this case, the mafia Rita gets the benefit of blocking kaempf while also knowing that myself and MW are the most likely players to be blamed. The upside:

- MW or shock are forced to role claim, giving mafia more info
- MW or shock are lynched, allowing for an easy town lynch day 1, that probably doesn't give many reads and creates voting patterns that are VERY EASY for mafia to hide in. I don't think anyone is getting town or mafia cred for voting me.
- We waste all day talking about Rita, which is probably not helpful at all for town (unless you're willing to stop casting my opinions aside because of my character and realize that the things I'm writing in both these spoilers are actually quite insightful and go much deeper into the game than any of you are doing)
- Forces kaempf to soft claim or narrow his role range, as well as potentially getting other players to make claims or hints towards their roles, narrowing the potential field for cops and info roles

Downsides:

- Depending on which roles town got, could be very easy to confirm who the actual Rita is the next night, and if it's not shock or MW, then it might lead to an insta lynch of the real Rita (HOWEVER, if they have Cocolia, have certain info roles themselves, or can role block, then they might be willing to go forth with this planning anyways, knowing they can get away with it while reaping the upside mentioned above.)
- If they actually just random used Rita, they're probably even crazier than me, and upon that realization may have to quit elements for life
- Everyone considers it scummy to use Rita and why draw attention to yourself when you can just hide behind Torb's plan and Rob/Linkcat's talking and get slight town reads from everyone?


Now let's explore the last scenario in which Rita is not me and is also town. In this case, they either came to the same realization I did, in which using Rita N0 can actually have some upside, or they're an idiot and are lying, and their name is MasterWalks. Who knows? I'm sure we'll find out soon enough though.

Final thoughts:

Either I'm a confirmed town Rita, or I'm not Rita but have a potentially useful role. And if I'm not Rita, then stop voting me up because you think I might be Rita and misplayed. And if you're voting me just because you think I'm chaotic, then stop taking the easy way out and being an arrogant elitist thinking players like me are so much worse at the game that you're better off wasting a lynch on a town, than potentially killing a mafia and getting way more info on someone who's been talking more. If no lynch is so bad because you don't get information and waste your power to take a stab at killing mafia, then voting up me just because you think I'm bad and a liability for town is being quite hypocritical. Instead, take your 3/17 chance on someone else rather than a 0/1 chance on me.


ACCEPTABLE REASONS TO VOTE ME TODAY:

1.) You don't think I'm Rita AND you do have information that makes you believe I might be mafia.
2.) You're one of those players who pretends to be logical but then uses shitty night 0 reads to lynch someone and one of those shitty reads happens to be that I'm mafia based off the 3 posts I've made thus far including this one.


dawn to dusk (2) - rob77dp, Naii_the_Baf
moehrpi (1) - kaempfer13
shockcannon (2) - Linkcat, iancudorinmarian
DoubleCapitals (1) - worldwideweb3
worldwideweb3 (1) - DoubleCapitals
kaempfer13 (1) - MasterWalks
killsdazombies (1) - TheonlyrealBeef
no lynch (1) - shockcannon

I'm willing to change my vote should actual, tangible information on someone come out today.
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Offline DoubleCapitals

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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299846#msg1299846
« Reply #301 on: July 09, 2020, 04:12:58 pm »
ftr, I don't like how shock plays, BUT I don't feel like his words so far imply he's scum (yes he does play 7D chess and lie about stuff and shit, but we can clear him with the abundance of investigative roles if we really wanted), but I do think we shouldn't NL, especially in this group of pals where advocating NL kills a thread faster than w3 kills his Trials hopes :^). I'll fucking RL rather than NL even if that target ends up being me, at least that would say something about someone...

Which reminds me, Link, can you add NAI into the glossary?
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299847#msg1299847
« Reply #302 on: July 09, 2020, 04:15:29 pm »
shock do you have a crush on kae though, I'm curious xD
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299848#msg1299848
« Reply #303 on: July 09, 2020, 04:37:39 pm »
@shock I kinda see your point about Rita being likely town, in that town cares less than mafia if they get killed. It still sounds extremelly reckless to me to do it in N0 tho and it still hurts town just because it can disrupt roles (it's a bit like a watered down version of Yae in this sense). It should just be used if you know what your doing (which is not the case in N0)
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299849#msg1299849
« Reply #304 on: July 09, 2020, 04:38:56 pm »
on second thought a watered down mind flayer is a better analogy
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299850#msg1299850
« Reply #305 on: July 09, 2020, 04:41:34 pm »
I disagree with Rita usage and think shock is just as "confirmed town" as rob was "confirmed mafia" last mafia, regardless of role. Just because a move is bad as scum, it does not mean it is good as/for town or that you are town. This does not mean I think Rita is scum for it, either. The people currently lynch voting shock do not seem to be voting him on the basis of believing he is scum either.

I'm still interested in lynching mafia, though. Low content posters are harder to read, so mafia likes hiding among them. shock's last post was anything but low content. Sticking with current lynch vote for now, but it's liable to change depending on how the rest of the day develops. kdz and Cal currently stand out as potential lynch targets for me.

Offline shockcannon

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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299851#msg1299851
« Reply #306 on: July 09, 2020, 04:51:30 pm »
@andre

There are 3 mafia and disrupting any of them is always good. There are arguably 4 useful town info roles that Rita can negatively disrupt. So roughly 50/50 odds of doing good vs. doing bad. Another key point is that it's not a role block, but a redirect. Using Rita just the first night only, isn't that bad even if it hits a cop, because then the cop knows you're safe. Not as good as finding a mafia, but also not the same as straight up role blocking. Additionally, hitting core of death or core of void with Rita is pretty great return and potentially game winning. Sure, Rita can redirect a couple other arguably relevant roles, but most of those redirects will have 0 net change in outcome if Rita is just used N0.


And I'm talking about Rita being used N0, not every night. Rita should not be used every night unless there is a clear target, but I'm talking about the benefits or Rita using her ability N0. The main goal is to get confirmed as town. The fact that there is as much upside as downside to using the role N0 is what justifies it being used N0 to try to get a free confirm.
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299852#msg1299852
« Reply #307 on: July 09, 2020, 05:04:40 pm »
Also don't forget, that the useful town info roles can belong to mafia or might not even exist in this game. This improves the odds of Rita usage N0 having a positive outcome. Everyone is down to lynch no matter what on day 1 with little to no information and terrible odds. Rita has greater odds and can effectively confirm herself as town, or potentially confirm a mafia. Hitting an info role with Rita doesn't even do as much harm as you think, whereas random lynching (which you all seem to prefer over no lynch) just straight up kills a town like 90-95% of the time.


I would also argue that whoever Rita is choosing to use her ability N0, ended up causing a lot of day 1 discussion and actually leading to things happening that can create reads. So the amount of information Rita usage can potentially gain (even if it "blocks" a town role) is comparable to random lynching some town on day 1 with minimal info and no previous voting patterns.


Can you disagree with me? Sure, but at least I'm offering discussion instead of memeing about how moehrpi gave himself away or random dice rolls in chat. Those posts are legit just cluttering up the thread and making it harder for low activity players to catch up when they do have the chance to read. In fact, tons of useless posts probably cause several players to skim over posts when there's a lot and make them miss out on useful info.
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299853#msg1299853
« Reply #308 on: July 09, 2020, 05:05:30 pm »
I disagree with Rita usage and think shock is just as "confirmed town" as rob was "confirmed mafia" last mafia, regardless of role. Just because a move is bad as scum, it does not mean it is good as/for town or that you are town. This does not mean I think Rita is scum for it, either. The people currently lynch voting shock do not seem to be voting him on the basis of believing he is scum either.

I'm still interested in lynching mafia, though. Low content posters are harder to read, so mafia likes hiding among them. shock's last post was anything but low content. Sticking with current lynch vote for now, but it's liable to change depending on how the rest of the day develops. kdz and Cal currently stand out as potential lynch targets for me.

But it is very easy for mafia to stay alive early phases, if you base it off activity (All they have to do is make some posts). There always tend to be a couple townies who are inactive at the start. I wouldnt lynch inactives at the start of mafia, tho if they’ve been inactive or posting useless stuff for a few phases, then i will consider going after them.
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299854#msg1299854
« Reply #309 on: July 09, 2020, 05:05:43 pm »
I'm still interested in lynching mafia, though. Low content posters are harder to read, so mafia likes hiding among them. shock's last post was anything but low content. Sticking with current lynch vote for now, but it's liable to change depending on how the rest of the day develops. kdz and Cal currently stand out as potential lynch targets for me.

I think as long as we take shock's posts with a grain of salt there's no big harm on letting him live for now.
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299855#msg1299855
« Reply #310 on: July 09, 2020, 05:06:01 pm »
Oh hey, dawn is alive. He claims to be Cecilia's target, so there's little point in voting dawn now.

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@shock:

Rita, regardless of alignment, is dangerous to the user, not to the target.

I kinda see your point in disrupting mafia abilities, however, as mafia or town, hitting an offensive role will probably get you killed or disabled, which is not good for whatever alignment you have.
Using Rita tells us nothing about your alignment, so attempting to claim town based on this is nonsense. If we follow your logic and train of thought, then a mafia Rita has as much to gain from disrupting town abilities as a town Rita has to gain from disrupting mafia abilities. The only difference is that a mafia Rita isn't guessing alignments blindly. In other words, Rita would be using their ability every night regardless of alignment.

A town Rita hitting a town EoR/#U ability just wastes it and will have a negative outcome because it is the loss of an ability use that could have been useful that night. Since mafia doesn't have to worry about hitting their own kind, I find it to be a more beneficial move as scum.

Also, I think you missed something from Rita's role: It will succeed if and ONLY if the ability has exactly one target. Hitting Yae and other roles with zero or multiple targets will have no effect.
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Re: Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67869.msg1299856#msg1299856
« Reply #311 on: July 09, 2020, 05:18:23 pm »
Also, I think you missed something from Rita's role: It will succeed if and ONLY if the ability has exactly one target. Hitting Yae and other roles with zero or multiple targets will have no effect.
Keep in mind that Rose Petals only checks to see if the ability can target one player, not whether it currently is, so it will affect abilities that target "up to three" players, or "any number of players" in the case of Radio Wave.

 

anything
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