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miniwally

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg92341#msg92341
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 11:55:53 am »
I think biting farms are most important for SoR which are quite rare and don't think you should be able to easily get them and considering they're an extra source of income for zanz.

Seravy

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg93073#msg93073
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 06:19:12 am »
This is the result of too many biting farms :
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8187.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8187.0.html)
Yes...poor players are starting to believe Flying Weapon is a rare, because they see it in farms all the time.

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg93099#msg93099
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 07:48:48 am »
I think that the Flying Weapon part is just an irony. Looks like hes being sarcastic about these guys that dislike non-biting farms, and really requesting Lobotomizer.

Midknight226

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg96035#msg96035
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2010, 06:11:14 pm »
I think that farms are ok to a point. Like getting a few rares here and there is fine, but I have five shards of readiness already that are all from farms. I don't think that you should be able to get so many of these shards so early after they came out from farms. So these are cards gotten from donating money, but i have enough shards to equal $30 from T50.

CB!

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg96201#msg96201
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 07:57:18 pm »
[sigh]
So, you're going to donate $30, right?  Don't forget the shards of gratitude.  They were the original donation cards.  If the farms are only OK to a point, you should probably sell most of your rares... to a point, wherever that line is...
[/sigh]

Zanz has said time and time again that this is a free game, and that donators wouldn't have access to cards that everybody didn't also have access to (obviously by way of PvP and T50 spins).  Sure, if you donate, you'll get a code for a shard.  But you shouldn't get upset when T50 is full of them and everybody has them, because donation-only-cards was never Zanz's plan for the game (so far as I know).

Fortunately the Elements community as a whole understands that this free game isn't really free and costs Zanz time and money to keep it running.  And a lot of people donate for that reason alone... some people even donate regularly...

stinky472

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg117252#msg117252
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 04:32:54 am »
I think it's a difficult situation. It's true, playing against a farm deck isn't fun, but is it fun against the AI when it's a biting deck? I don't think it is very much. To the contrary, I'm more annoyed when I play t50 and it's not a farm deck, since I play t50 for farming purposes solely. If I want to have fun, I'd rather play the people in t50, not an AI that poorly plays their decks.

Without farm decks, it might take ages to win specific rare cards needed for, say, an fg farming deck. Maybe it should take ages to acquire these rare cards, but they are essential for a lot of effective decks. Farming just isn't that fun in general, but it would be miserably slower if t50 didn't have farm decks. I talked to a player the other day who was depressed because it took him so long farming level 3 and pvp just to upgrade one card. I suggested he try farming FGs, but he lacked the eternity for ScaredGirl's, the electrocutors for rol/hope, the pulvs for the no CC deck, etc. I told him not to worry about it because of the farm decks on T50.

It might mitigate the situation if rares could be purchased for, say, 20,000 electrum. Then at least players won't have to feel hopelessly relying on luck to win the eternity needed, for, say, ScaredGirl's fg farming deck. Hopefully they'll win the specific rare sooner than that, but if they can't, at least there's a backup to which they can steadily progress. It'll be an expensive goal, but at least it won't seem hopeless.

The AI in general isn't very fun IMO. There are so many ways to exploit it, and FG killing decks are generally designed to do just that for many of their strategies. Did the AI play a pulverizer a turn before you could? No problem, play an hourglass and a pulverizer and he'll pulverize the hourglass and you can destroy his pulv. Have an FFQ against AI with creature control but no quintessence handy? No problem, just use antimatter on it. The AI has gotten a lot smarter since the game was introduced but it's still pretty dumb: mutating one of your creatures that aren't a major threat when you are rainbow into something much better, etc.

The real fun is in playing real people. I think everything else is just a grind, and it's already quite slow as it is. I'm quite thankful for the farm decks and think it speeds up the boredom that is already involved playing t50 decks against the AI. T50 decks also are especially prone to be poorly played by the AI. For instance, amassing fire quantums before using fire lance just doesn't register with the AI. A lot of these decks require specific strategies and sometimes heavy brainpower, and the computer just doesn't do very interesting things with those decks. Even the decks not made for farming at all can be ridiculously easy to beat and boring just because the computer doesn't know what to do with it: generally the more sophisticated the deck, the worse the AI does with it.

If we really want to make it challenging to win rares and based more on perseverance and skill than luck, perhaps rares should only be obtainable through pvp and false gods who at least have the extra hp, 3x mark, and extra draw to make up for their poor AI. For a truly elitist game we could have a system where a pvp win grants the winner the loser's card and the loser loses the card from his deck. Then it would really be the top players that have the rare cards only as bad players would not be able to win them and, even if they could, they wouldn't be able to hold onto them for long. That would also make the rares truly hard to get and keep, so people wouldn't design so many decks around rare cards.

TheoCT

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg117501#msg117501
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2010, 04:34:30 pm »
You can win rares in PvP, ai3/5, and FG's. And the game is meant to be a long term game, thats the point, it took me quite a while to get my first rare(other than the one I got from the quest) and to fill out what I have today. No reason we should be giving you the same thing we worked for on a silver plater.

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg117625#msg117625
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2010, 07:05:38 pm »
I still think theres no point in making rares harder to get. Noob people need them, and I think we shouldnt make them live with the disadvantage of not having rares.

In fact, some biting farms make me much more enraged than normal non farm decks. However, thats just me.

stinky472

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg117703#msg117703
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2010, 08:54:52 pm »
I think one problem with the game is almost the exponential difference in the rate at which you can win upgraded cards and electrum between beginners and more experienced players. There was a time about a year ago when I started where it took me a couple of days just to earn enough to upgrade one card. I was so excited. However, after getting frustrating pvp matches against players with fully upped decks that were quite similar to mine (and frankly, I thought mine was a better designed smaller deck), I began to get more and more frustrated by how long it was taking me to upgrade cards. At the rate I was going, I'd have to play every day for a month or two just to get one upgraded deck.

That was until I discovered how to successfully farm FGs. After that, I was upgrading multiple cards every hour (this was before sundial nerf when fgs were so much easier and we could easily get something ridiculous like a 75% win rate even with a deck that wasn't upgraded).  I feel sorry for those stuck in the same shoes as I was before. It took me a long time to realize how to farm FGs and the only reason I could start reasonably quickly (within a day or so) after starting was due to the kind people who had non-biting farms to give me the rares that these decks absolutely needed (the rares weren't a nice little option which rares probably should be). Biting farms might have been okay but then it might have taken me much longer to win eternity. On the other hand, elders didn't seem to award rares quite as often as they do now. Rares really are becoming less rare all the time, and I can understand the concern there.

I think one problem is the matching system in pvp 2. I have around 50k score right now and I get matched up with people with something like 1000 score with one upgraded card in their deck. It seems awfully unfair against my fully upped deck, but why wouldn't the novice, with his first upgrade card, not get excited and want to try it out in a pvp2 match when he invested all that time in upgrading it? It's not fun for either of us. I don't like beating down opponents with almost no chance of winning against me, and it's probably even worse for the opponent. Pvp 1 almost seems more appealing to experienced players than new ones to try non-upgraded deck ideas. Perhaps if the game matched more appropriately by similar scores or allowed players to refuse matches without hindering their score, maybe it would mitigate this problem somewhat and the fact that rares truly become rare would be more acceptable without discouraging new people to the game.

Perhaps another problem is with the slots. The random nature of them makes it difficult to win rares at any kind of consistent rate except from farm decks. It might take a few matches or it might take hundreds to win a rare from a regular deck not full of rares. Maybe if the algorithm as improved to, say, omit towers, the spin/win rate might be better. I still like the idea of selling rares at the bazaar for, say, 20,000 electrum (maybe 100k for a nymph). That's a hefty cost but we could make them truly rare but something one can win eventually without gambling with every victory.

Take nymphs, for example. I haven't won one. I've been playing regularly for at least a year now (maybe over), though oracle didn't exist until long after I started. I have friends who have won 6 nymphs from oracle in spite of playing a shorter time. I visit the oracle daily and have only won non-rare cards. It kind of sucks that I, in spite of putting a lot more time and effort into the game, can not win any nymphs but my friends who just casually play and farm level 2 can win multiple. That doesn't seem fair at all, so perhaps if this luck element was reduced a bit, it would be better. For instance, perhaps one can get a rare for every 1000 victories. That would still take ages regardless of whether you're farming elders, fgs, t50, or doing pvp matches (especially this), but it would reduce the luck factor (some could get lucky and win much sooner, but at least those who are unlucky could eventually win a needed card for their deck).

So if the general idea is that people should have to really put in some elbow grease to win rares, I'd agree if we make this consistent: reduce or take out the luck factor of slots and oracle and provide alternative ways to win a rare (it could require a ton of work but guarantee a rare to be won). Either this or implement a trading system so that when we win rares we don't need, we can trade them for something else we do need. That would make this like Diablo 2 where unique items that are very hard to come by (might play for months but never win one for someone looking to find that item specifically) yet unneeded for a character build can be exchanged for one that is needed. If either of these things could happen, I think rares could truly become rare: maybe we don't even need to win them from regular games, or at a much lower rate to make them super rare, but this way people are bound to win some rare which they can trade or win a rare of their choice after, say, 1000 victories which takes ages.

hermantheowl

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg117732#msg117732
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 10:10:39 pm »
Peaceful farms should be alowed. Having to try beat the decks of people with all the cards inorder to get the cards you need to stand a chance is frustrating. I avoided the top 50 for a long time beacasue of this. You can lose a ton of electum trying to find farms if you are not prepared and there are so few unupgraded strategies available. You need shards for many strategies so I had to play T50 to get them because ROL Hope needs them. Also 1500 per pupgrade is ridiculously harsh. 150 seems more apprpriate.

sSethia

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg118316#msg118316
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2010, 03:55:25 pm »
Peaceful farms should be alowed. Having to try beat the decks of people with all the cards inorder to get the cards you need to stand a chance is frustrating. I avoided the top 50 for a long time beacasue of this. You can lose a ton of electum trying to find farms if you are not prepared and there are so few unupgraded strategies available. You need shards for many strategies so I had to play T50 to get them because ROL Hope needs them. Also 1500 per pupgrade is ridiculously harsh. 150 seems more apprpriate.
1500 for an upgrade is fine. The decks in the top 50 are actually easy to beat with a good enough deck, since a lot of them are usually the big time rainbows built for FGs. The Top 50 category was made for you to fight decks in the Top 50, not for you to scan through to try to get lucky with a farm.

hermantheowl

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Re: Other t50 Players - Suggestion about making your farms https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7413.msg118342#msg118342
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2010, 04:34:31 pm »
I was saying you have to actually fight your way thorough the top 50 to find so peaceful famrs are not a problem. How is 1500/upgrade fun? How is grinding suppsoed to be fun? Also what is they besides lava golems, shriekers, poison or fire decks for unuped?

 

blarg: