*Author

CB!

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg66351#msg66351
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2010, 04:17:51 pm »
I'm chiming in late on this one... but I don't see the earthquake argument... sure you can't destroy it with earthquake, but you can steal it... or explode it... steal and explode are way more common in decks than earthquake...
Nobody said it is indestructible. Of course you can steal, explode etc. it, but the point is that you can do all those against regular pillar/tower as well OR use Earthquake.

In other words, there are more ways to "counter" a regular pillar/tower than to counter Shard of Power.

Yeah, but this is a much more attractive target to steal... People don't (at least I don't) usually waste a steal for a tower.  This would definitely get stolen...

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg66354#msg66354
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2010, 04:24:22 pm »
Yeah, but this is a much more attractive target to steal... People don't (at least I don't) usually waste a steal for a tower.  This would definitely get stolen...
well, that's a whole another topic.

The point was that decks with only Earthquake (like a Graboid/Shrieker PvP deck), cannot remove this permanent, they can only remove Pillars/Towers. That makes Shard of Power more powerful because there are less ways to counter it.

Offline kev

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3075
  • Reputation Power: 54
  • kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.kev brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.
  • Ungrounded
  • Awards: Winner of Team PvP #5Master of Multipliers - Scorgasm WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeChampionship League 1/2010 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament Winner2nd Trials - Master of FireFavorite Staff Member of 2011Weekly Tournament WinnerMVP of Draft #2Make a Quiz winnerTeam PvP #3 WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday CakeWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWar #1 Winner - Team Fire
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg66355#msg66355
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2010, 04:27:36 pm »
Quote
So im confused, does it, or doesnt it replace towers?
I don't think you are, cuz it was answered in your quote:
Quote
You don't just replace Towers with this one. You use them both.
As the card is obviously most similar to a tower other than a quantum tower, comparing it to a supernova or an immo or a quantum tower or a graveyard is less useful than comparing it to a tower.  Here's the comparison:

  • SoP costs one quantum to play, versus tower generates one quantum when played.
  • SoP generates three quantum each turn versus 1.
  • Max 6 SoPs in deck (which means it mostly supplements towers)
  • SoPs don't stack (which means one could run out of perm spots, though this isn't likely in practice)
  • SoPs can't be targeted by earthquake (or nymph's tears if we're being thorough).
  • Both can be targeted by steal/deflag/puvlies/butterflies.
But the fact of the matter is those last four points are almost irrelevant in scope of the first two.  Virtually every mono/duo deck would irrefutably be better off replacing six towers with six SoPs.

A better argument for the card is that mono towers are underpowered and this would help as a sort of buff.  BluePriest started on that thought here:
Quote
People keep complaining about how mono decks need to be stronger, however, every time theres a suggestion for it, then it seems shot down because it would make them OP.
I suspect SG agrees with that thought process and that's why she said:
Quote
I don't hate Shard of Power. I actually like the idea that it uses your mark to determine what it produces.

dragonhuman

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg66364#msg66364
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2010, 04:48:06 pm »
But anyway all shards are overpowered but this is even more so, if it was cost 2 and only 2 quantum per turn it might be a little in tune with the overpoweredness of the other shards

Or what if it was a 1/2 creature that generated 2 quantum of your mark but then it'd be op compared to the illimunance creatures

$$$man

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg78225#msg78225
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2010, 06:52:12 pm »
In the most part Yes. See above.
Did you look at that table I made there?

Cards like this are the wrong way of designing CCG's. All cards should be equal in "power", only different. This card does what Towers do but almost 3 times faster. It's not only different, it's clearly a much better card.
What about SoD and Heal one clearly out does the other


PuppyChow

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg78305#msg78305
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2010, 09:09:59 pm »
And Heal is under-powered :).


Anyway, I'm in the OP camp on this one.

For any and every mono deck where I use nine or more towers, I would replace six with six of these. Simply for the reason SG stated.

In fact, if I could, I would replace EVERY tower in a mono deck with these. Or reduce the number of quanta-generating things. So you discard your first turn, if need be. Let's look at that scenario.

1 Tower vs. 1 SoP.

Tower turn 1: 2
Tower turn 2: 3
Tower turn 3: 4

SoP turn 1: 0
SoP turn 2: 2
SoP turn 3: 5

Even without drawing a single tower on turn one, as long as you're mono deck with the same mark, you get more quanta by turn 3. That's just plain faster. It would be *almost* like taking all the cards in your deck and dividing their cost by 3.

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg78447#msg78447
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2010, 02:35:16 am »
For any and every mono deck where I use nine or more towers, I would replace six with six of these.
Cool, now you have room for 3 more Creatures etc in your deck but can't use your mark for any activators.

I've been working on this mathematically, and might increase the cost slightly (to 2), but I still want you to use this in a monodeck to fit more cards in. Just need to keep it from making all mono into rush decks. I'm using the decks that have been posted in this topic already, just haven't come to a descision yet. Its hard because it is in the same field as towers and should replace them when dealing with your mark but not when dealing outside of your mark. Giving you a more useful cards compared to quanta generators.

Do you have a deck for me? the more sampling I can access the better I can balance the card.

Offline harakirinosaru

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Reputation Power: 4
  • harakirinosaru is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New to Elements
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg79354#msg79354
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2010, 04:32:29 am »
In the most part Yes. See above.
Did you look at that table I made there?

Cards like this are the wrong way of designing CCG's. All cards should be equal in "power", only different. This card does what Towers do but almost 3 times faster. It's not only different, it's clearly a much better card.
Forget all the math and mechanics. I just want to address this point here.

Let me think of a good way to say this...oh, I know.

Let's pick two creature cards, Otyugh and Fate Egg. Now tell me which one you'd rather have if they could both be immortal under the old rules.

If you're indecisive, let me break it down for you. One of these cards can win the game by itself. The other may amuse you for less than 15 seconds.

Equal in power? Not even close. But obviously Elements isn't badly designed, or you wouldn't be here.

Now, I suppose you could argue that Otyugh can't win every game. Entirely true. But this card can't shine every game either. In fact, most of the cards in Elements are like that: they can be ludicrously good or abysmally bad depending on the situation.

And Heal is under-powered :).

Anyway, I'm in the OP camp on this one.

For any and every mono deck where I use nine or more towers, I would replace six with six of these. Simply for the reason SG stated.

In fact, if I could, I would replace EVERY tower in a mono deck with these. Or reduce the number of quanta-generating things. So you discard your first turn, if need be. Let's look at that scenario.

1 Tower vs. 1 SoP.

Tower turn 1: 2
Tower turn 2: 3
Tower turn 3: 4

SoP turn 1: 0
SoP turn 2: 2
SoP turn 3: 5

Even without drawing a single tower on turn one, as long as you're mono deck with the same mark, you get more quanta by turn 3. That's just plain faster. It would be *almost* like taking all the cards in your deck and dividing their cost by 3.
Congrats, you've got yourself one more quanta by turn 3.

Everyone's also assuming this card has some kind of godlike staying power. In a world where Steal and Deflag exist, there's no guarantee that this card will even be on the field at that time.

Kael also brings up a point: the auto-mulligan system also will make sure you never open with too many of these.
I'm not going to look into how that system works as I'm tired, but I think if you run it through a hyper-geometric probability calculator, you'll find that Pups hypothetical situation rarely happens.

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg98422#msg98422
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2010, 09:13:46 am »

In most cases showed what I expected and that was that over time the SoP was worth the effort but if a protracted game was unlikely then there was no gain in the SoP. Using 1 in a Rainbow deck provided the endgame time quanta without 3 time towers but was lackluster in accelerating the deck. Due to its simple efficient nature, more testing would be required. Doubt it will break PVP where speed is a requirement but it'll be good against AI5 and false gods.

Anyone else have a deck to break this?

Shard of Power Game Testing

I used Echo testing, so both decks are run in parallel with One card replaced with another, This means that draw will not affect the test. For these decks I used Sog as a replacement cards so you can load the deck. None of these decks beat Golem rush with any fair chance regardless of having SoP or Not.

Fire Lance
6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dk 7dk 7dk 7dk 7dk 7dk 7dn 7dn

Speed Light
6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jq 7jq 7jq 7jq 7jq 7jq 7jv 7jv 7jv

Life Rush
5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ag 7ag 7ag 7ag 7ag 7ag 7an 7an 7an 7an 7an 7an MARK Life

A typical game. The Deck without the SoP was faster only because it could play damage immediately whereas the SoP deck had to wait. Removing the cost of the SoP, the gain overall in this match was only 5, the extra turns waiting to cast the SoP generating Quanta.

_TURN   _PLAYER   _ACTION   _EFFECT   _TARGET
1   A   Draw   Epinephrine (E)   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Draw   Horned Frog   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Horned Frog   C1
      Qgain   5   
      Dam   3   
2   A   Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Epinephrine (E)   C1
      Qgain   10   
      Dam   15   
            
3   A   Draw   Epinephrine (E)   
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C2
      Qgain   14   
      Dam   32   
            
4   A   Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C3
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C4
      Qgain   20   
      Dam   59   
5   A   Draw   Horned Frog   
      Play   Horned Frog   C5
      Play   Epinephrine (E)   C5
      Qgain   25   
      Dam   98   
6   A   Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Qgain   32   
      Dam   137   

_TURN   _PLAYER   _ACTION   _EFFECT   _TARGET
1   B   Draw   Epinephrine (E)   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Draw   Horned Frog   
      Draw   Elite Cockatrice (E)   
      Draw   Shard of Power (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Qgain   3   
      Dam   0   
            
            
2   B   Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Shard of Power (E)   
      Play   Horned Frog   C1
      Qgain   10   
      Dam   3   
3   B   Draw   Epinephrine (E)   
      Play   Epinephrine (E)   C1
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C2
      Qgain   16   
      Dam   20   
4   B   Draw   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Emerald Tower (E)   
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C3
      Play   Elite Cockatrice (E)   C4
      Qgain   24   
      Dam   47   
5   B   Draw   Horned Frog   
      Play   Horned Frog   C5
      Play   Epinephrine (E)   C5
      Qgain   31   
      Dam   86   
6   B   Draw   Shard of Power (E)   
      Play   Shard of Power (E)   
      Qgain   41   
      Dam   125   

guy_fawkes

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg98440#msg98440
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2010, 10:31:06 am »
all right, we can say that a deck that consists of small creatures that cost 2 or 3 quanta is not much affected by the SoP.
can we say this scenario is a good test to demonstrate Shard of Power is not OP?

Shard of Power is obvioulsy a card that works well with heavy quanta cards.
I am an SG's follower in this topic, even if i think this card would be fun to play, but it's really OP.

Kael Hate

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg98459#msg98459
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2010, 11:31:17 am »
all right, we can say that a deck that consists of small creatures that cost 2 or 3 quanta is not much affected by the SoP.
can we say this scenario is a good test to demonstrate Shard of Power is not OP?

Shard of Power is obvioulsy a card that works well with heavy quanta cards.
I am an SG's follower in this topic, even if i think this card would be fun to play, but it's really OP.
If you really think it is OP, give me a deck where it is comparable enough to break the environment, a deck where its faster than the fastest or suddenly has so much quanta you can break the curve, It is designed to improve the environment bringing the ass end closer to the opening rush types so you can't cut it down because of that. 

guy_fawkes

  • Guest
Re: Shard | Shard of Power https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5641.msg98461#msg98461
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2010, 11:48:05 am »
imho a Fire Stall deck would gain an incredible boost with this card,
the fractal/pest deck would gain so much darkness mana and would be faster...

i don't know, as i said i really like the idea, because a lot of quanta opens the way to new types of decks, but as a first impression i think this card it's really strong, everyone will put em in every deck...

 

blarg: