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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 12:12:34 am

Title: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 12:12:34 am
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd137179/Manticore2.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd137180/Greater_Manticore2.png)
NAME:
Manticore
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
3 :life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4|2
TEXT:
Gains ":gravity :gravity: Devour" if your mark is Gravity.
Gains ":death: Poison" if your mark is Death.
NAME:
Elite Manticore
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
5 :life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
5|3
TEXT:
Gains ":gravity :gravity: Devour" if your mark is Gravity.
Gains ":death: Deadly Poison" if your mark is Death.
ART:
Werdbooty
Original Image (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chimera_guinle_3.JPG)
Image License (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:public_domain)
IDEA:
Werdbooty (w/ a wink to the CCC Team & much thanks)
NOTES:
Passive Abilities: Airborne
"Deadly Poison" deals 2 poison counters instead of the normal 1.
Some quick background information: the Manticore was a mythological creature of various permutations, most often accounted as having the body of a lion, the head of a human, the wings of a dragon and the tail of a scorpion. Also supposedly shot poisoned spines at its prey and devoured it whole. Hence the Devour/Poison/Airborne aspects.
This is possibly a bit OP but I think it could also stand as is. Might switch the card's element from Life, if need be. The idea was to create a card powerful enough to stand as a vanilla creature yet still have some usefulness, depending on the scenario. It also had to synergize well with any abilities. Manticore is the result.
SERIES:
Mythos
USEFUL LINKS:
"Manticore" Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore)
Communal Card Creation Team (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17219.msg234145#msg234145)
v1.0
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd136941/Manticore_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd136941/Manticore)(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd136942/Greater_Manticore_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd136942/Greater_Manticore)
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Rutarete on February 04, 2011, 12:15:29 am
This is a GREAT IDEA! I see potential for a series with a multiple-mark mechanic.
On a side note, if that describes a manticore, then what's a griffin? i think i've  mixed them up
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: icybraker on February 04, 2011, 12:17:40 am
Wow, this card is really intruiging. I haven't seen a card like this before where your mark affects the creature's ability, but I think it's a really good idea!

The card itself is good, I think, and it does fit with the actual creature. Without playtesting, I'd initially suggesting raising both the upped and unupped costs by 1 :life, but again, I haven't playtested this.

Know what might happen if a player has a :gravity mark but owns a :death mark card and plays it? :P

And finally: Is this art a collage job or did you actually make the background and creature art? If the latter is true, I applaud you for your skills. If the former is true, nice collaging skills.

That's all. A very interesting and well-designed card.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: SeddyRocky on February 04, 2011, 12:19:20 am
Balance wise, 1 additional cost for 5 attack compared to Oty? (I get that it's a duo, but the mark guarantees use every turn). Might want to tweak that.

Concept-wise, it sounds a little complicated, but I'm for it.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Wonder on February 04, 2011, 12:19:57 am
Wow d^^b I love the concept of a card's ability changing depending on the mark.
Great idea!!
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: doublecross on February 04, 2011, 12:26:22 am
This is a very creative idea. I really like making marks count for more than just quanta generation.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 12:30:50 am
I thought about upping the cost, for all of the reasons previously stated (don't wanna overshadow Otyugh and it seems a little too cheapo for a 5|5). But let me go through my math and you guys can poke the holes where you see fit :D

Unupped:
+3 :life for attack
+2 :life for either ability, assuming your mark matches
-1  :life for Life's innate bonus.

Upped:
+5  :life for attack
+2  :life for either ability, again assuming your mark matches
-1  :life for Life's innate bonus
-1  :life for Upgrade

Note: It also needs to remain cheap enough to stand as a viable vanilla creature for mono-Life.

Hence why I thought the creature's element may need to change. I did think a boost to cost might be required at first but thought I'd toss it out as is and see what I can see. As for the art, follow the link in the Art section of the table and you can see the original image is a photo of a Chimera statue (another creature that might follow this treatment). Most of my pictures are photos that I've cropped, warped or run thru various filters. This was a hard one. If anyone wants to draw me a snarly little Manticore, complete with scorpion tail, it'd be most appreciated.

Know what might happen if a player has a :gravity mark but owns a :death mark card and plays it? :P

Your mark, not your mark card ;)  ...if your mark changes mid-game, so does the Manticore (assume it happens at end of turn).

Also, the Griffin is a bird/lion thing. Close but not quite.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Hyroen on February 04, 2011, 01:10:59 am
Gotta say, I'm really diggin' the multimark mechanic. I hope I see this a little more often --where it applies--

I also wanted to ask "Poison" refers to the skill that Forest Scorpion, Arsenic and Pufferfish have right?

Another tiny detail that sort of bothers me. Can we give it 2 health instead? It seems too much like an Otyugh and they cost 4 quanta as well, just that this one has 3 more attack. In my opinion the restrictive deck building point is not equal to 3 attack, knowing that it also works wonders with Adrenaline.

As for the upgraded, I'd also say it needs a nerf. Basing it on the Otyugh as well.

Having said my initial feelings I do have to state that I'm not the best at balancing. But I'm sure he'll come soon and have fun with this one.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: ddevans96 on February 04, 2011, 01:17:09 am
I also wanted to ask "Poison" refers to the skill that Forest Scorpion, Arsenic and Pufferfish have right?
'Poison' is the ability of Chrysaora. The ability of those creatures is called 'Venom'
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Hyroen on February 04, 2011, 01:29:48 am
Dur. That makes sense. Why would Venom cost 1 :death to use? u_u

You can tell I don't use Venom much.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 01:33:15 am
Gotta say, I'm really diggin' the multimark mechanic. I hope I see this a little more often --where it applies--

I also wanted to ask "Poison" refers to the skill that Forest Scorpion, Arsenic and Pufferfish have right?

Another tiny detail that sort of bothers me. Can we give it 2 health instead? It seems too much like an Otyugh and they cost 4 quanta as well, just that this one has 3 more attack. In my opinion the restrictive deck building point is not equal to 3 attack, knowing that it also works wonders with Adrenaline.

As for the upgraded, I'd also say it needs a nerf. Basing it on the Otyugh as well.

Having said my initial feelings I do have to state that I'm not the best at balancing. But I'm sure he'll come soon and have fun with this one.
ddevans is correct...same as Chryasora. Poisons your opponent when activated. I also think the best bet with Manticore in terms of balancing may be just to up the cost by 1 apiece. We shall see, if I think you're referring to the same 'he' I think you are.

As suggested, I have some ideas for other creatures similar to this - we'll call it the Mythos series for now - but I don't want to water down the "craziness" that is Manticore until people have gotten used to it. I'm quite proud of this one.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on February 04, 2011, 01:51:36 am
Nice.
However Devour (with 3hp to start) is worth +4 quanta and Devour (with 5hp to start) is worth +6 quanta
Poison is worth only +1 quanta
IIRC: Devour with 2hp to start is worth +2

So
Unupped
Stats: 4|2
Ability: Either  :gravity :gravity:Devour or  :death:Poison
Would be at a casting cost of 4(attack) +0(0<hp<6) +0(duo skill) -1 (life bonus) = 3 :life

Elite Manticore needs a more powerful Death skill to balance out the +4 cost of  :gravity :gravity:Devour.
Alternatively it could go with 3hp upgraded and only need to find a powerful Death skill to match the +2 cost of  :gravity :gravity: Devour.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 02:40:40 am
I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right :D
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on February 04, 2011, 02:48:30 am
I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right :D
Now that's the sign of a good debator, being able to look from other points of view and always looking for things to discuss. 

That aside, there are two potential routes this card could go:

*Gravity cost to  :gravity :gravity
OR
*Playing cost + 1  :life / + 2  :life

I think OT's option is better (Increased ability cost) because even thought Manticores can be quite intimidating, they're usually not at the top of the creature kingdom, but display great power nevertheless (I haven't seen many games that put manticores as the super-ultra deity, it's usually reserved for something like a god or some really big mythical beast like a dragon or hydra) Also, this card starts off with attack, unlike Oty, so this card already has a head start considering it can deal damage. Increased ability cost sounds better overall.

There is a third option of changing the skills used, but I personally think this card is fine the way it is.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: doublecross on February 04, 2011, 02:54:13 am
I like the more expensive devour.  Since it would only apply in decks where you have a gravity mark, gravity production shouldn't be that difficult.


Doesn't work in rainbow that well, but that is OK. 

Be interesting for a rainbow to get this in a fate egg...
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Krahhl on February 04, 2011, 03:10:42 am
I like the skill costs at one quanta because it matches perfectly with the mark requirement to use them. The casting cost could be increased. Maybe the poison skill could also deal 2 poison per use instead of 1 so it's more on par with the power of devour.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on February 04, 2011, 03:16:56 am
I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right :D
Very well.
Disclaimer: I am currently working on a new Design Theory but it is far from complete so I will us my less reliable older version for now.

First: Modular abilities
Obviously this is a creature with one of two abilities, obviously the value of both abilities needs to be equal or one will be UP compared to the other. (fairly obvious but stated for completeness)

Second: Duo quanta requirement
Cards that require 2 or more types of quanta limit the deck more and are less reliable. This reduced utility is compensated with an initial cost reduction. [currently Mono=0, Duo=-1]

Third: Devour
The value of Devour depends on the percentage of creatures that can be devoured by the starting HP plus any irregular synergies like swarm. From Scarab and Otyugh I theorize that Devour is worth 1 quanta per 10%.
Initial HPValue of Devour
10
22
34
45
56
Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as an unupped Oytugh because an unupped Oytugh has no other redeeming qualities.

Fourth: Expensive Activation cost
Skills with expensive activation costs [2-3 quanta or 4+ quanta] cost more than their casting cost depicts.
This seems to play out as a -1 cost reduction for expensive [2-3 quanta] and -2 cost reduction for very expensive [4+ quanta].

Fifth: Life Bonus
Life creatures cost strangely 1quanta under what my current theory would predict. This constant -1 cost reduction is called "Life bonus" and is similar to other elemental bonuses.
However you stated that you would prefer to keep medium stat. This is thematically understandable.
With stats as they are:
I would increase  :gravity:Devour [+3 :life|+5 :life] to  :gravity :gravity:Devour [+2 :life|+4 :life]
I would then suggest creating a Death ability that is powerful enough to match. [+2|+4 if no activation cost, +3|+5 if activation cost of :death]

 :death :death Deadly Poison [2 poison per activation] would be worth ~+2.
 :death Deadly Poison would be worth ~+3.
 :death Deadly Poison on a Life creature would be worth ~+2.
So :death Deadly Poison would work nicely for the unupped if Devour is increased to :gravity :gravity
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 04, 2011, 03:33:51 am
You guys are great!

Okay, so I think I follow your math now, especially whereas Poison is concerned. I was leery of inventing a new ability, hence the basic "pi'zin" as my da' would say. Unfortunately 'Deadly Poison' doesn't fit the card...I'll have to fiddle-faddle with the card editor to see what I can come up with. OldTrees, you never fail to deliver, I'll give ya that.

I also see where you're coming from on the Otyugh front. Hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks to doublecross for pointing out that a 2 quanta casting cost shouldn't be a problem in a mono deck. Y'see, I've always been somewhat afraid of 2-quanta casting costs, as they take up valuable space in the card's text box and just seem ungainly. Consider those fears allayed.

I've reconsidered the health of Manticore as well. After Zblader's comment I did some further research on the nature of the beast and discovered lo! He is correct. Manticores usually do end up depicted as rather fragile, if deadly, creatures.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: skyreal on February 04, 2011, 11:26:12 am
I love the concept of adopting ability according to the mark!
Furthermore the thematic of manticore is well explored.
I hope Zanz reads this thread.

But I would switch its element to Air, Entropy or Light maybe Other, not Life.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on February 04, 2011, 05:11:06 pm
I love the concept of adopting ability according to the mark!
Furthermore the thematic of manticore is well explored.
I hope Zanz reads this thread.

But I would switch its element to Air, Entropy or Light maybe Other, not Life.
Manticores are typically land bound. Life fits
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 06, 2011, 03:33:45 pm
Card modified. Original can be still viewed for comparison.

I went with some of the community's suggestions (you can tell, no?), and came up with a slightly less powerful version of Manticore. The unupped looks good so far (thank you OT) and I like where the upgraded is headed. My only concern is with either the 5 attack or the activation cost of Deadly Poison on Elite Manticore. I'm debating either dropping the attack down to 4 (or even keeping Elite Manticore as a 4|2) or upping the activation cost to  :death :death. However, it looks to me like it could readily stand on its own as is.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on February 06, 2011, 03:52:56 pm
Looks good.
Skill Value
Gravity Mark:
+2|+4 (Devour [2|3hp]) -1|-1 (Activation Cost 2-3) -1|-1 (Duo) = +0|+2
Death Mark:
+1|+3 (Poison|Deadly Poison)  -1|-1 (Duo) = +0|+2
Stat Value
4|5 (attack) +0|+0 (0<HP<6) -1|-1 (Life Bonus) = 3|4

Total
3|4 (Stat Value) +0|+2 (Skill Value) -0|-1 (Upgrade) = 3 :life|5 :life
The upgraded is on the low side of the balanced range so there should be no fear of it being OP.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: doublecross on February 06, 2011, 05:16:14 pm
Fun fact: this card would serve as a very tiny nerf to fate eggs, skeletons, reverse time and eternity.

Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 07, 2011, 04:45:54 am
Submitting to Crucible.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Kuroaitou on February 09, 2011, 09:34:18 am
CURATOR COMMENT
-Fix the COST of your unupped card (it should be '3 :life' instead of '4 :life' to match the image)



Huh. I think I've seen this mechanic once for a weapon concept, although the card had excessive amounts of text, so it didn't fare well in the Crucible. This idea, on the other hand... :D
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on February 09, 2011, 02:49:30 pm
CURATOR COMMENT
-Fix the COST of your unupped card (it should be '3 :life' instead of '4 :life' to match the image)



Huh. I think I've seen this mechanic once for a weapon concept, although the card had excessive amounts of text, so it didn't fare well in the Crucible. This idea, on the other hand... :D
Table fixed. Thanks for the support Kuro.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Cel on April 04, 2011, 10:35:30 pm
This is a GREAT IDEA! I see potential for a series with a multiple-mark mechanic.
On a side note, if that describes a manticore, then what's a griffin? i think i've  mixed them up
A griffin is half eagle half lion.

Really awesome idea.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Newbiecake on April 04, 2011, 10:59:48 pm
I don't think you should have the upgraded Death ability as "Deadly Poison"; players will get horribily confused. I never knew it only does 2 damage instead of the orginal 3. I think the unupped version can be called "Weak Poison" and the upgraded verison can be called "Poison".

Also, I think Devour for both versions can be lowered to 1  :gravity, because this creature merely has 3 health, and it requires a duo in order to make use of its ability.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Werdbooty on April 07, 2011, 10:11:07 pm
I don't think you should have the upgraded Death ability as "Deadly Poison"; players will get horribily confused. I never knew it only does 2 damage instead of the orginal 3. I think the unupped version can be called "Weak Poison" and the upgraded verison can be called "Poison".
This worried me as well. I like that, "Weak Poison." Thanks.

EDIT: just remembered Chrysaora. Ew. Now that would get confusing.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on April 07, 2011, 11:19:20 pm
I don't think you should have the upgraded Death ability as "Deadly Poison"; players will get horribily confused. I never knew it only does 2 damage instead of the orginal 3. I think the unupped version can be called "Weak Poison" and the upgraded verison can be called "Poison".
This worried me as well. I like that, "Weak Poison." Thanks.

EDIT: just remembered Chrysaora. Ew. Now that would get confusing.
Potent Poison?
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Funkyvenom on April 11, 2011, 04:40:19 am
MANTICORES ARE AWESOME!!! thanks for making this card, I have been waiting for a manticore card forever. I think the pic. is a griffin though.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: storyteller on April 17, 2011, 05:46:00 am
this should be a fire creature
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on April 17, 2011, 05:51:40 am
this should be a fire creature
Why?
Is it because Atk>HP? See Giant Frog.
If it is for another reason please explain.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: storyteller on April 17, 2011, 06:13:45 am
because manticores are fire creatures. they are usually red and inhabit lava filled caves. manticores are fire creatures.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on April 17, 2011, 06:21:52 am
because manticores are fire creatures. they are usually red and inhabit lava filled caves. manticores are fire creatures.
This is typically the case in games but Manticore is the creature described in the Persian myths known as the Man Eater and is not related to fire, lava or caves for that matter.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore

In fact Manticores are a myth that originated from encounters with Tigers in the jungles of India. Jungles and Tigers seem to fit the Life theme more than a Fire theme if you ask me.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Funkyvenom on April 17, 2011, 06:35:35 am
I thought a maniticore card should actually be death because of the poison spikes and all. Just my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on April 17, 2011, 06:38:06 am
I thought a maniticore card should actually be death because of the poison spikes and all. Just my personal opinion.
Good point, but Life uses poison too.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Funkyvenom on April 17, 2011, 06:42:18 am
I understand what you mean, but manticores kill things and use venom and they sting people and they bite things. Not exactly a life-themed idea. In fact, it pretty much represents almost half of all things death. The other half being disease and graveyards and bonewalls and soul catchers.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Jappert on April 17, 2011, 06:51:31 am
Just wanted to add that I still think it's an awesome idea to add these mark-abilities to a creature card. It's also some kind of an indirect nerf to rainbow decks, it's just a great concept.

And it's got my vote in the Forge!
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Funkyvenom on April 17, 2011, 06:58:37 am
this is probably the wrong place to ask, but how and where do you vote for these things?
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: OldTrees on April 17, 2011, 07:01:42 am
this is probably the wrong place to ask, but how and where do you vote for these things?
You vote in the stickied threads at the top of the section
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6846.0.html
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Funkyvenom on April 17, 2011, 07:15:18 am
this is probably the wrong place to ask, but how and where do you vote for these things?
You vote in the stickied threads at the top of the section
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6846.0.html
ok, thanks. yeah, I voted for this card too. Last I checked it had 11 votes rivaled only be dark cracken.
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: moomoose on April 21, 2011, 11:00:22 pm
i noticed it recently, so i'm late to the process- but i like it alot.  i had a similar idea for :life with it being a snake, but mine didnt have the duality of the ability based on the mark- which is actually what i like best about this one.  good job
Title: Re: Manticore | Elite Manticore
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on April 22, 2011, 12:30:08 am
wow, this card went a long way since i last checked it. good job on rework
blarg: