Manticore | Elite Manticore

[Werdbooty]

I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right

[ZephyrPhantom]

I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right

Now that's the sign of a good debator, being able to look from other points of view and always looking for things to discuss. 

That aside, there are two potential routes this card could go:

*Gravity cost to 
OR
*Playing cost + 1  / + 2 

I think OT's option is better (Increased ability cost) because even thought Manticores can be quite intimidating, they're usually not at the top of the creature kingdom, but display great power nevertheless (I haven't seen many games that put manticores as the super-ultra deity, it's usually reserved for something like a god or some really big mythical beast like a dragon or hydra) Also, this card starts off with attack, unlike Oty, so this card already has a head start considering it can deal damage. Increased ability cost sounds better overall.

There is a third option of changing the skills used, but I personally think this card is fine the way it is.

[doublecross]

I like the more expensive devour.  Since it would only apply in decks where you have a gravity mark, gravity production shouldn't be that difficult.


Doesn't work in rainbow that well, but that is OK. 

Be interesting for a rainbow to get this in a fate egg...

[Krahhl]

I like the skill costs at one quanta because it matches perfectly with the mark requirement to use them. The casting cost could be increased. Maybe the poison skill could also deal 2 poison per use instead of 1 so it's more on par with the power of devour.

[OldTrees]

I'm not quite sure I follow, sirrah. I don't rightly understand how Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as a 0|3 Otyugh? I'd like to avoid diminishing the health of this creature. For once, I'm not looking for something unobtrusive and small; this is a Manticore! Legendary creature that devours things whole! I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather up the cost than drop the atk|hp. Also I thought Poison was worth 2. My bad. I see your point there.

Wouldn't an ability that requires a different quanta to activate count for anything as well? Or am I just quoting scripture that's behind the times?

Convince me OldTrees. Pretend I'm an obstinate idjit who thinks he's always right

Very well.
Disclaimer: I am currently working on a new Design Theory but it is far from complete so I will us my less reliable older version for now.

First: Modular abilities
Obviously this is a creature with one of two abilities, obviously the value of both abilities needs to be equal or one will be UP compared to the other. (fairly obvious but stated for completeness)

Second: Duo quanta requirement
Cards that require 2 or more types of quanta limit the deck more and are less reliable. This reduced utility is compensated with an initial cost reduction. [currently Mono=0, Duo=-1]

Third: Devour
The value of Devour depends on the percentage of creatures that can be devoured by the starting HP plus any irregular synergies like swarm. From Scarab and Otyugh I theorize that Devour is worth 1 quanta per 10%.

Initial HP	Value of Devour
1	0
2	2
3	4
4	5
5	6

Devour with 3hp to start is worth the same as an unupped Oytugh because an unupped Oytugh has no other redeeming qualities.

Fourth: Expensive Activation cost
Skills with expensive activation costs [2-3 quanta or 4+ quanta] cost more than their casting cost depicts.
This seems to play out as a -1 cost reduction for expensive [2-3 quanta] and -2 cost reduction for very expensive [4+ quanta].

Fifth: Life Bonus
Life creatures cost strangely 1quanta under what my current theory would predict. This constant -1 cost reduction is called "Life bonus" and is similar to other elemental bonuses.
However you stated that you would prefer to keep medium stat. This is thematically understandable.
With stats as they are:
I would increase  :Devour [+3 |+5 ] to  :Devour [+2 |+4 ]
I would then suggest creating a Death ability that is powerful enough to match. [+2|+4 if no activation cost, +3|+5 if activation cost of ]

  Deadly Poison [2 poison per activation] would be worth ~+2.
  Deadly Poison would be worth ~+3.
  Deadly Poison on a Life creature would be worth ~+2.
So Deadly Poison would work nicely for the unupped if Devour is increased to

[Werdbooty]

You guys are great!

Okay, so I think I follow your math now, especially whereas Poison is concerned. I was leery of inventing a new ability, hence the basic "pi'zin" as my da' would say. Unfortunately 'Deadly Poison' doesn't fit the card...I'll have to fiddle-faddle with the card editor to see what I can come up with. OldTrees, you never fail to deliver, I'll give ya that.

I also see where you're coming from on the Otyugh front. Hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks to doublecross for pointing out that a 2 quanta casting cost shouldn't be a problem in a mono deck. Y'see, I've always been somewhat afraid of 2-quanta casting costs, as they take up valuable space in the card's text box and just seem ungainly. Consider those fears allayed.

I've reconsidered the health of Manticore as well. After Zblader's comment I did some further research on the nature of the beast and discovered lo! He is correct. Manticores usually do end up depicted as rather fragile, if deadly, creatures.

[skyreal]

I love the concept of adopting ability according to the mark!
Furthermore the thematic of manticore is well explored.
I hope Zanz reads this thread.

But I would switch its element to Air, Entropy or Light maybe Other, not Life.

[OldTrees]

I love the concept of adopting ability according to the mark!
Furthermore the thematic of manticore is well explored.
I hope Zanz reads this thread.

But I would switch its element to Air, Entropy or Light maybe Other, not Life.

Manticores are typically land bound. Life fits

[Werdbooty]

Card modified. Original can be still viewed for comparison.

I went with some of the community's suggestions (you can tell, no?), and came up with a slightly less powerful version of Manticore. The unupped looks good so far (thank you OT) and I like where the upgraded is headed. My only concern is with either the 5 attack or the activation cost of Deadly Poison on Elite Manticore. I'm debating either dropping the attack down to 4 (or even keeping Elite Manticore as a 4|2) or upping the activation cost to  . However, it looks to me like it could readily stand on its own as is.

[OldTrees]

Looks good.
Skill Value
Gravity Mark:
+2|+4 (Devour [2|3hp]) -1|-1 (Activation Cost 2-3) -1|-1 (Duo) = +0|+2
Death Mark:
+1|+3 (Poison|Deadly Poison)  -1|-1 (Duo) = +0|+2
Stat Value
4|5 (attack) +0|+0 (0<HP<6) -1|-1 (Life Bonus) = 3|4

Total
3|4 (Stat Value) +0|+2 (Skill Value) -0|-1 (Upgrade) = 3 |5
The upgraded is on the low side of the balanced range so there should be no fear of it being OP.

[doublecross]

Fun fact: this card would serve as a very tiny nerf to fate eggs, skeletons, reverse time and eternity.

[Werdbooty]

Submitting to Crucible.