Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Cards => Fire => Topic started by: TheonlyrealBeef on March 04, 2012, 12:36:17 AM

Title: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on March 04, 2012, 12:36:17 AM
New shard in development (http://www.elementsthegame.com/development.html), currently testable in the trainer (http://www.elementsthegame.com/trainer).
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ShardOfBravery.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ShardOfBraveryUpgraded.png)
Discuss!
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Onizuka on March 04, 2012, 12:36:52 AM
Dat shortened name.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 12:36:59 AM
First things first, I like it, though it could easily replace something like Precognition, or even Electrum Hourglasses, though the latter is less likely. The price could be seen as too low, and, imo should be increased by 1, but that's just me :F... more will come eventually, but it sure is fun in trainer :D
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: bogtro on March 04, 2012, 12:42:40 AM
Are the cards destroyed if it's a full hand (like was originally implied), or are they just not drawn (like if you use Hourglass with a full hand)?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: willng3 on March 04, 2012, 12:45:22 AM
Not drawn, not as originally intended.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 12:48:47 AM
wow, this thread is out so fast.... i like the card.... it will improve any deck drawimg mechanism.... last time it is limited to sundial, precognition and hourglass.... sometimes you need certain card that can change the tide, and yeah you manage to draw it sooner before it is too late.... i think this card will improve the potential of any deck and improve hand draw... i really like it...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Cel on March 04, 2012, 12:50:59 AM
Love the mechanic but fits neither Fire or the name, IMHO.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Higurashi on March 04, 2012, 12:52:57 AM
Since drawing power is what combo decks mainly want, this is completely overpowered in a huge number of OTK decks (we're talking 2-4 turn wins of 100-350'ish damage (yes) in one turn that can't be stopped because SoB is a spell). You could probably fix this by not letting you draw more than your opponent can.

Also, I found a bug. Clicking one SoB in my hand turned it into a Chimera on the field. In truth I only have one Chimera in the deck, and it's in my hand. Iman00b8 can confirm this bug happening to him as well.
(http://i.imgur.com/H6QJs.jpg)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Max Fire on March 04, 2012, 12:53:38 AM
Another mechanism in the fire element, it's very odd but this card is very very very OP !
Players will chain combos like monkeys ! I put my fire pillars -> minor phenix -> cremation -> SoB -> nova
-> phenix -> cremation ->dragon... and we can go far away like this. Fire rush decks will be monstrous.
Very amazing but very abused  :D
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on March 04, 2012, 12:54:07 AM
I don't really see what it has to do with  :fire .  And drawing was supposed to be  :time 's niche...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 01:00:00 AM
Since drawing power is what combo decks mainly want, this is completely overpowered in a huge number of OTK decks (we're talking 2-4 turn wins of 100-350'ish damage (yes) in one turn that can't be stopped because SoB is a spell). You could probably fix this by not letting you draw more than your opponent can.

erm care to explain a bit more..... you mean if opponent has 5 cards, you cannot draw till more than 5 cards is it
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Higurashi on March 04, 2012, 01:04:20 AM
I mean this Shard doing nothing when your opponent has a full hand, which happens very quickly of course.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: EmeraldTiger on March 04, 2012, 01:21:52 AM
Seems fun to me.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 01:25:49 AM
Since drawing power is what combo decks mainly want, this is completely overpowered in a huge number of OTK decks (we're talking 2-4 turn wins of 100-350'ish damage (yes) in one turn that can't be stopped because SoB is a spell). You could probably fix this by not letting you draw more than your opponent can.

Also, I found a bug. Clicking one SoB in my hand turned it into a Chimera on the field. In truth I only have one Chimera in the deck, and it's in my hand. Iman00b8 can confirm this bug happening to him as well.
(http://i.imgur.com/H6QJs.jpg)
Yeah I can... it seems that if you play the card too quickly after drawing it, it turns into a Chimera... not confirmed, but that is when it has happened to me
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 01:34:59 AM
does the chimera die after that?? i mean like spark it will die after that right?? since the chimera has 0 hp
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: bogtro on March 04, 2012, 01:35:43 AM
Confirmed, and yes to the above question.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on March 04, 2012, 01:39:29 AM
With a cost of 1 :rainbow upgraded, this card seems ready to take over Precognition's position just by looks. All sillycritique in chat aside, I'd agree with the before-mentioned nerf that prevents you from drawing more cards if your opponent doesn't have the ability to draw more as well.

Overall, it looks kind of like Precog, but for :fire instead (though it also gives strong :light vibes). I'm not sure if this brings anything new to the table yet, but I'll let the card run it's due testing course and see where it goes.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: agentflare on March 04, 2012, 01:43:37 AM
My initial impressions: Mostly balanced with a possible scenario that it can be abused badly in (though not discovered yet)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 01:48:36 AM
Suddenly, fat decks and extremely fast (fire) mono rushes.

Seriously, even unupped, at the cost of 3 quanta, this can fit into anything. A mono life deck, a mono water, mono time. 3 quanta for 2 card draw is way more than worth it. Precogs can make a 30 card deck seem like 24, this can make a 30 card deck seem like 18 or 12.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Fireleaf on March 04, 2012, 01:54:41 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 01:57:18 AM
but if you have a
With a cost of 1 :rainbow upgraded, this card seems ready to take over Precognition's position just by looks. All sillycritique in chat aside, I'd agree with the before-mentioned nerf that prevents you from drawing more cards if your opponent doesn't have the ability to draw more as well.

Overall, it looks kind of like Precog, but for :fire instead (though it also gives strong :light vibes). I'm not sure if this brings anything new to the table yet, but I'll let the card run it's due testing course and see where it goes.

well i agree with your first paragraph.... but care to explain your second paragraph?? why do you think it gives strong light vibes??
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 02:01:53 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.

erm, sorry but then only time or rainbow will benefit.... at least now don't you think other elements have a better card drawing mechanism as well?? and as you know fire has been nerfed a lot lately, i do not think SoB for fire affinity and seraph is very powerful.... seraph is very costly you know....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Fireleaf on March 04, 2012, 02:04:59 AM
Does every element have to be complete? Something being a shard makes it accessible to every single deck. For any mechanic that is something to be managed very carefully, and card drawing is something that "belongs to :time" as it is directly related to the theme of :time.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 02:05:22 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.
Just saying again, this is not a :fire card... it is an Other whose ability gets increased WITH :fire... it's no more a :fire card than SoG is a :life card
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Fireleaf on March 04, 2012, 02:06:59 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.
Just saying again, this is not a :fire card... it is an Other whose ability gets increased WITH :fire... it's no more a :fire card than SoG is a :life card
Yes, but it gains a 50% benefit when used with  :fire, and fits well in an immo rush, which is one of fire's two main deck types. SoBe, while being other, helps  :fire more than any other element.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 02:09:56 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.
Just saying again, this is not a :fire card... it is an Other whose ability gets increased WITH :fire... it's no more a :fire card than SoG is a :life card
Yes, but it gains a 50% benefit when used with  :fire, and fits well in an immo rush, which is one of fire's two main deck types. SoBe, while being other, helps  :fire more than any other element.
That is the whole point of elemental shards... SoG, SoD, SoR, SoP, SoSe, SoSac, and SoV help :life, :light, :time, :water, :entropy, :death, and :darkness, respectively, more than other elements
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 02:10:01 AM
This card is immensely powerful in any element, though fire benefits the most. Just check out the decks I made here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37212.msg498634.html#new). 6 SoBe, 6 dragons, rest towers, and you have an insanely fast deck that just creams AI3 into the ground.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Fireleaf on March 04, 2012, 02:12:49 AM
I just really can't understand what purpose this card serves when we already have precog, HGs, and an absurd plethora of powerful fire cards.  This just completely overshadows everything else when it comes to drawing in a rush. All it does is make a bunch of other niche cards much less useful.
Just saying again, this is not a :fire card... it is an Other whose ability gets increased WITH :fire... it's no more a :fire card than SoG is a :life card
Yes, but it gains a 50% benefit when used with  :fire, and fits well in an immo rush, which is one of fire's two main deck types. SoBe, while being other, helps  :fire more than any other element.
That is the whole point of elemental shards... SoG, SoD, SoR, SoP, SoSe, SoSac, and SoV help :life, :light, :time, :water, :entropy, :death, and :darkness, respectively, more than other elements
Yes, but I am trying to make the point that, for example, SoG helps  :life stall, while life is a rush element. Rushing, particularly immorushing is a big part of  :fire, and this card makes the already OP immorushes far more powerful and fast.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 02:16:17 AM
yeah i agree with you Iman00b8..... very true.... very true....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Anarook on March 04, 2012, 02:36:48 AM
Post CardIdeaRoundPlanningTable:

Shard of Bravery-Increases draw power for 2 turns. +1 turn if either mark is fire.(Both players)
More balanced than current version(Opponent reaction+smaller burst potential)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on March 04, 2012, 02:38:10 AM
Post CardIdeaRoundPlanningTable:

Shard of Bravery- Increases draw power for X turns.(Both players)
More balanced than current version(Opponent reaction+smaller burst potential)
This is a good improvement.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 02:38:25 AM
It needs cost increase most of all. 3|1 is way too cheap and can be replaced with towers. It needs at least a 6|4 cost or so.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on March 04, 2012, 02:49:59 AM
Post CardIdeaRoundPlanningTable:

Shard of Bravery- Increases draw power for X turns.(Both players)
More balanced than current version(Opponent reaction+smaller burst potential)
This is a good improvement.
Thirded. It maintains the 1-to-1 and antideckoutstrengths without taking way too much from the card.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 02:51:03 AM
Post CardIdeaRoundPlanningTable:

Shard of Bravery- Increases draw power for X turns.(Both players)
More balanced than current version(Opponent reaction+smaller burst potential)
This is a good improvement.
Thirded. It maintains the 1-to-1 and antideckoutstrengths without taking way too much from the card.
Seems like a way to balance this card out...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: eaglgenes101 on March 04, 2012, 02:54:11 AM
Speeddraw for fire's win.
Not sure if this is good or not.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dragonsdemesne on March 04, 2012, 03:01:55 AM
This is way undercosted, but with a higher cost, maybe something like 6 // 4, it might be doable, although that's still quite cheap and it could still be very easily abused with supernova quanta.  I'm envisioning some sort of speedbow with 6x supernova 6x SoB, 6x precog dropping the top half of its deck turn 1, while the opponent only gets to draw 1 card from your first shard if they weren't playing first.  Another nerf could be to make only one copy playable per turn, or make it unplayable if the opponent can't also get the draw benefit, which will be a huge problem on the first turn.

A few questions on the mechanic:

1) I play this and have a fire mark, I obviously get 3 cards but does my opponent get 2 or 3?
2) I play this and my -opponent- has a fire mark, do they get 2 cards or 3?

Another way of reworking the shard could be something like this:
Cost: 3 // 1 (as zanz currently has it) Each player draws *1* card.  If the owner of this card has a fire mark, deal 6 damage to the opponent. 

This would help prevent the chaining problem, since less benefit would be gained, while still giving fire a useful bonus, and one that fits the theme of fire much better.

With a 2 card draw, any supernova deck using 6 of these will be really powerful.  I'm thinking in particular combo decks like instosis or voodoo universe, and any speedbow are going to have vastly increased win rates.  Heck, instosis could probably pull off a sub-5 ttw average with this shard if it only cost 1.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 03:05:58 AM
With the SoBe chimera glitch, does it act like a chimera (merge all your creatures together)? And what exactly causes it?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Anarook on March 04, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
to note a small addition:
Upon further discussion: Effect lasts 2 turns. 3 if mark is :fire.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 03:36:06 AM
to note a small addition:
Upon further discussion: Effect lasts 2 turns. 3 if mark is :fire.
effect lasts two turns?? it is just added is it
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on March 04, 2012, 03:42:03 AM
to note a small addition:
Upon further discussion: Effect lasts 2 turns. 3 if mark is :fire.
effect lasts two turns?? it is just added is it
It was a reference to this

Post CardIdeaRoundPlanningTable:

Shard of Bravery- Increases draw power for 2 turns+ 1 turn if either player has a Fire mark.(Both players)
More balanced than current version(Opponent reaction+smaller burst potential)
This is a good improvement.
Thirded. It maintains the 1-to-1 and antideckoutstrengths without taking way too much from the card.
Seems like a way to balance this card out...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: n00b on March 04, 2012, 03:42:42 AM
With the SoBe chimera glitch, does it act like a chimera (merge all your creatures together)? And what exactly causes it?
I'm not sure if it acts like a Chimera, as each time it happened, I had no creatures out (though the stats were 0|0). Not positive about what causes it, but, as I said before, it happened to me both times when I would click on it while it was drawing or immediately afterwards
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 03:51:46 AM
ok.... then i agree with the idea too.... more balanced too....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 04:38:47 AM
I propose 2 ideas to nerf this card.
1. Change the casting cost to 6|4
2. Change its effect so both players draw 1 card. 2 if the player's mark is :fire.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: willng3 on March 04, 2012, 04:47:40 AM
Since drawing power is what combo decks mainly want, this is completely overpowered in a huge number of OTK decks (we're talking 2-4 turn wins of 100-350'ish damage (yes) in one turn that can't be stopped because SoB is a spell). You could probably fix this by not letting you draw more than your opponent can.
Agreed 100%.  Twas my first thought when I started messing around with it.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 04:56:28 AM
I propose 2 ideas to nerf this card.
1. Change the casting cost to 6|4
2. Change its effect so both players draw 1 card. 2 if the player's mark is :fire.

i think i prefer the second one though.... not sure i like the first one....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 04:58:41 AM
I propose 2 ideas to nerf this card.
1. Change the casting cost to 6|4
2. Change its effect so both players draw 1 card. 2 if the player's mark is :fire.

i think i prefer the second one though.... not sure i like the first one....
Right. First one is still abusable easily by nova and supernova.

Keeping the cost 3|1 would make it out shine precog.

Therefore, I propose it be changed to a 4|2 casting cost and have the effect of having both players draw 1 (or two if mark is :fire). This makes it so the shard can be used as a weaker precog for every element.

Alternatively, drawing two cards is still powerful, so perhaps make it a 4|2 card that lets both players draw, but make it cost 3|1 if your mark is fire.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 05:03:20 AM
I propose 2 ideas to nerf this card.
1. Change the casting cost to 6|4
2. Change its effect so both players draw 1 card. 2 if the player's mark is :fire.

i think i prefer the second one though.... not sure i like the first one....
Right. First one is still abusable easily by nova and supernova.

Keeping the cost 3|1 would make it out shine precog.

Therefore, I propose it be changed to a 4|2 casting cost and have the effect of having both players draw 1 (or two if mark is :fire). This makes it so the shard can be used as a weaker precog for every element.

Alternatively, drawing two cards is still powerful, so perhaps make it a 4|2 card that lets both players draw, but make it cost 3|1 if your mark is fire.

ya i think this is better.... do mind if i be your buddy?? we seems to meet a lot in the forums....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Anarook on March 04, 2012, 05:09:10 AM
Nuuuu, attempted overshadowing of previous improvements is baaad.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 05:09:35 AM
I propose 2 ideas to nerf this card.
1. Change the casting cost to 6|4
2. Change its effect so both players draw 1 card. 2 if the player's mark is :fire.

i think i prefer the second one though.... not sure i like the first one....
Right. First one is still abusable easily by nova and supernova.

Keeping the cost 3|1 would make it out shine precog.

Therefore, I propose it be changed to a 4|2 casting cost and have the effect of having both players draw 1 (or two if mark is :fire). This makes it so the shard can be used as a weaker precog for every element.

Alternatively, drawing two cards is still powerful, so perhaps make it a 4|2 card that lets both players draw, but make it cost 3|1 if your mark is fire.

ya i think this is better.... do mind if i be your buddy?? we seems to meet a lot in the forums....
Sure why not.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: willng3 on March 04, 2012, 05:52:48 AM
New modifications: 
[00:42:17] zanzarino: Ok, done with Shard of Bravery. Now it gives as many cards as the opponent got, cost increased to 5/3
[00:42:23] zanzarino: Uploading new trainer now
[00:42:40] zanzarino: Done

EDIT:  Nerf ish gud.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Avenger on March 04, 2012, 06:49:22 AM
Haha, something against fractal and nightmare. I really like this one.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 04, 2012, 06:53:08 AM
nerf'd. Well, it's more balanced (at least compared to what it was like before). Who thinks this will be used a lot in firestall?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Avenger on March 04, 2012, 06:53:52 AM
I don't really see what it has to do with  :fire .  And drawing was supposed to be  :time 's niche...
Heat things up. Haste is usually associated with :fire element. 'Shard of Haste' probably doesn't sound as well, though.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 07:55:58 AM
I don't really see what it has to do with  :fire .  And drawing was supposed to be  :time 's niche...
Heat things up. Haste is usually associated with :fire element. 'Shard of Haste' probably doesn't sound as well, though.
ya i agree.... it seems weird to name it shard of haste... i think shard of speed sounds better
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: kimham8a on March 04, 2012, 08:06:13 AM
It should be noted that 0 turn kills have been achieved with this card against AI3.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Calindu on March 04, 2012, 08:10:42 AM
It should be noted that 0 turn kills have been achieved with this card against AI3.
Not in the actual form.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 08:20:58 AM
zanz makes some modification  so it will be ok.....it is not that op anymore
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Kuroaitou on March 04, 2012, 09:15:46 AM
Love the name; I wasn't sure what 'theme' Fire would get, but being brave is a pretty good virtue for the element. :)

...and wow, did it get nerfed fast. >.>
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on March 04, 2012, 09:17:36 AM
Love the name; I wasn't sure what 'theme' Fire would get, but being brave is a pretty good virtue for the element. :)

...and wow, did it get nerfed fast. >.>
Fire wastes no time. Presented. Broken. Nerfed. Done.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on March 04, 2012, 12:56:07 PM
After the nerf it seems like an acceptable card so far, but!
I noticed what I cannot help but consider a bug:

Sanctuary: "your hand cannot be altered during your opponents' turn", suddenly, Shard of Bravery:
(http://imageplay.net/img/tya22255595/SoBe1.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/tya22255596/SoBe2.png)
Opponent managed to do the same to me, too.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Fireleaf on March 04, 2012, 01:01:04 PM
Maybe because cards being drawn counts as a different effect than something like NM? It's not a major issue with the card itself, unless you have a Sanc, and they are not too common. I think you should still draw with a Sanc if your opponent plays SoBe, do maybe the effect could be reworded to allow this.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: drolly on March 04, 2012, 01:38:05 PM
Interesting what's happening when I'm asleep ...
Fire wastes no time. Presented. Broken. Nerfed. Done.
:))

In my opinion, SoBe should be completely blocked by Sanctuary because:
Well, SoBe's a nice card, I think :)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: zhangvict on March 04, 2012, 02:26:19 PM
this card is a total hard counter to eternity + photon deckout decks
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 04, 2012, 11:54:50 PM
u mean opponent cast shard of bravery and u receive 2 cards isit?? what is the bug
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: eaglgenes101 on March 05, 2012, 12:47:41 AM
u mean opponent cast shard of bravery and u receive 2 cards isit?? what is the bug

It's that it happens despite Sanctuary.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: mesaprotector on March 05, 2012, 01:14:29 AM
Update: Now countered by sanctuary.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,35190.msg499100#msg499100
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: kimham8a on March 05, 2012, 04:19:47 AM
But as the opposing player you wouldn't want to counter it in most cases right?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 05, 2012, 04:28:35 AM
But as the opposing player you wouldn't want to counter it in most cases right?
It could be used to potentially clog your opponent's hand.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on March 05, 2012, 04:29:16 AM
And probably force deck out.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: kimham8a on March 05, 2012, 04:41:19 AM
But that's usually not a problem in my experience. Besides, with deckout, if you know opponent has some SoB, start rewinding sooner. As for hand clog, except instosis, I would rather draw until my hand is full rather than not. It's like the difference between, single, double, and octuple draw.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 05, 2012, 04:42:23 AM
But that's usually not a problem in my experience. Besides, with deckout, if you know opponent has some SoB, start rewinding sooner. As for hand clog, except instosis, I would rather draw until my hand is full rather than not. It's like the difference between, single, double, and octuple draw.
>implying most decks have rewinds or eternity
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: kimham8a on March 05, 2012, 04:46:10 AM
But you could also be decking yourself out. In the case where the opponent has a small deck, it would probably be a rush that would love to draw half its deck in two turns. If it's humongous, then it's more likely it has eternity, or you could even just be decking yourself out if you were relying on a big deck to deckout.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 05, 2012, 05:36:35 AM
ya i agree with the change in the fire card.... but i do not get the rationale on using sanctuary to counter SoB..... To protect quanta is ok, but to protect from drawing?? i think if sanctuary prevents effect that force you to discard cards( not in elements yet) , i think it is more appropriate...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on March 05, 2012, 05:39:52 AM
Well, Sanc prevents effects to hand during opponent's turn, so I guess that's where the rationale is.  As for when you use SoB and you have the Sanc...  Well, I'm lost there.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Kuroaitou on March 05, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
Well, Sanc prevents effects to hand during opponent's turn, so I guess that's where the rationale is.  As for when you use SoB and you have the Sanc...  Well, I'm lost there.
Nothing should happen in this case. Because YOU are modifying your own hand, Sanctuary should have no effect on your drawing of cards. It's only when the opponent has Sanctuary do cards like Shard of Bravery fail.

Thematic-wise, I'm starting to think that Shard of Bravery is actually a codeword for 'Taunt'; when you use the Shard, you're basically challenging the opponent to step up their game and prove themselves battle-worthy (hence, them drawing cards) whilst you also simultaneous make a headstrong charge/tactic against them (you drawing cards equal to them). Of course, if they're immune to your provoking (Sanctuary, a clear state of mind), then your taunt fails, and there's no point in 'trying to charge' at them (can't draw cards).
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 05, 2012, 06:02:52 AM
when you taunt someone, you don't usually play fair right?? even in some other games you will have increased armor or something..... to me it is more like RISK.... you are giving opponent the chance to change the tide..... it is bravery too.... and of course it suits fire...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: furballdn on March 05, 2012, 06:04:12 AM
But you could also be decking yourself out. In the case where the opponent has a small deck, it would probably be a rush that would love to draw half its deck in two turns. If it's humongous, then it's more likely it has eternity, or you could even just be decking yourself out if you were relying on a big deck to deckout.
You do realize that the only decks that have eternity are huge 50+ card decks that involve the main theme of decking the opponent out right? Nobody else uses eternity. As for rush decks, shard of bravery fits nearly perfectly in a fire stall. It helps get firestall decks better draws (since firestall usually has around 40 cards), and it can deck out the smaller rush deck. Even if the smaller rush deck gets its creatures out, shard of bravery means the firestall deck can also get out its control cards faster.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 05, 2012, 06:11:23 AM
But you could also be decking yourself out. In the case where the opponent has a small deck, it would probably be a rush that would love to draw half its deck in two turns. If it's humongous, then it's more likely it has eternity, or you could even just be decking yourself out if you were relying on a big deck to deckout.
but normally fire stall uses farenheit right..... it slows down a little.... if used in midgame it is slower

You do realize that the only decks that have eternity are huge 50+ card decks that involve the main theme of decking the opponent out right? Nobody else uses eternity. As for rush decks, shard of bravery fits nearly perfectly in a fire stall. It helps get firestall decks better draws (since firestall usually has around 40 cards), and it can deck out the smaller rush deck. Even if the smaller rush deck gets its creatures out, shard of bravery means the firestall deck can also get out its control cards faster.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: kimham8a on March 05, 2012, 06:16:49 AM
A fire deck with fire shards get to have an extra advantage from the shard. The advantage in this case given is to draw MORE cards. MORE cards mean MORE wins. So drawing cards is MORE good, not MORE bad. The word MORE is reminding me of MORTE (who sucks).  :D
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: zhangvict on March 05, 2012, 06:17:18 AM
But you could also be decking yourself out. In the case where the opponent has a small deck, it would probably be a rush that would love to draw half its deck in two turns. If it's humongous, then it's more likely it has eternity, or you could even just be decking yourself out if you were relying on a big deck to deckout.
You do realize that the only decks that have eternity are huge 50+ card decks that involve the main theme of decking the opponent out right? Nobody else uses eternity. As for rush decks, shard of bravery fits nearly perfectly in a fire stall. It helps get firestall decks better draws (since firestall usually has around 40 cards), and it can deck out the smaller rush deck. Even if the smaller rush deck gets its creatures out, shard of bravery means the firestall deck can also get out its control cards faster.
With the singularity nerf to SN, I expect the effectiveness of SoB against rushes to be increased greatly since rushes cant play SN twice in 1 turn.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Picheleiro on March 05, 2012, 04:26:05 PM
To see this in Nightmare-GoP decks is gonna be REALLY fun.

Arena, here comes the SoB.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Wizy on March 05, 2012, 11:14:54 PM
This is actually a very bad card to include in a ghostmare deck.
If your opponent hand is not full, you will give him/her the opportunity to have 1-2 more cards that are not GotP.
If you opponent hand is full, nothing will happen.
Quote
Draw an equal amount of cards.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Aves on March 05, 2012, 11:49:27 PM
This is actually a very bad card to include in a ghostmare deck.
If your opponent hand is not full, you will give him/her the opportunity to have 1-2 more cards that are not GotP.
If you opponent hand is full, nothing will happen.
Quote
Draw an equal amount of cards.
The nightmares would be more important, of course, but you only have 6 of them. Using the SoB after the nightmares would force opponents to discard cards and lock their hands for up to 12 turns instead of just 6.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dragonsdemesne on March 06, 2012, 12:00:49 AM
This is actually a very bad card to include in a ghostmare deck.
If your opponent hand is not full, you will give him/her the opportunity to have 1-2 more cards that are not GotP.
If you opponent hand is full, nothing will happen.
Quote
Draw an equal amount of cards.
That's exactly the best case to use SoB, though, when your opponent's hand is full, so they don't get the extra cards.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on March 06, 2012, 12:06:29 AM
This is actually a very bad card to include in a ghostmare deck.
If your opponent hand is not full, you will give him/her the opportunity to have 1-2 more cards that are not GotP.
If you opponent hand is full, nothing will happen.
Quote
Draw an equal amount of cards.
That's exactly the best case to use SoB, though, when your opponent's hand is full, so they don't get the extra cards.
You missed when it was nerfed. Now it will give you a maximum number of cards Equal to what the opponent draws from it.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dragonsdemesne on March 06, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
Ohh, okay.  Yeah, that does nerf the card, which it really needed.  Now there's no way to gain card advantage from SoB (it's actually card disadvantage, since it costs you the SoB) but it will give you a huge tempo boost, since you get to use the drawn cards first.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Aves on March 06, 2012, 12:14:54 AM
It's neutral, card-advantage wise. You use up SoB, but filling their hand causes them to discard a card. -1 -1 both sides, after nightmare. It's still 12 turns of hand-denial.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on March 06, 2012, 12:24:17 AM
It's neutral, card-advantage wise. You use up SoB, but filling their hand causes them to discard a cardskip a draw. -1 -1 both sides, after nightmare. It's still 12 turns of hand-denial.
The discard step is after the main phase. The opponent has plenty of time to play cards. They are not forced to discard by SoBe alone.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Aves on March 06, 2012, 12:31:20 AM
Ah, right. Because unlike with nightmare they can  usually play cards from their own decks. It might still ruin some combos, but it's not even skipping a draw because they've actually already drawn, earlier. I'm imagining a pest-SoBe-nightmare-GoTp combo right now, but that seems too large for an effective fast combo.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dragonsdemesne on March 06, 2012, 01:33:50 AM
It's neutral, card-advantage wise. You use up SoB, but filling their hand causes them to discard a card. -1 -1 both sides, after nightmare. It's still 12 turns of hand-denial.
Good point; if SoB brings them up to 8 cards, the lost draw makes it neutral in terms of card advantage.  My point is only right if SoB puts the opponent at 7 or less cards total.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Avenger on March 11, 2012, 12:47:08 AM
Maybe some visual feedback is needed when the opponent has sanctuary and you play this one.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Wizy on March 11, 2012, 04:41:14 AM
I reaffirm this card would be bad in a ghostmare deck. The main strength of such decks is making the opponent draw as little new cards from their deck as possible, through making them miss draws and reversing their creatures. Making your opponent draw 2 new cards goes against you.
Even if playing the shard would fill the opponent's hand (note that discard only happens at end of one's turn), in that case you would have neutral card advantage, yes, but you will exchange 1 card for another such as Precognition does, and for that prupose Precognition is better.
Because:
- costs less.
- lets you see your opponent's hand and next draw.
- you will not give your opponent card advantage if their hand is not almost full.

--
Where will this card be really useful:

-Any deck, versus AIs with double draw. Filling its hand or almost, makes it draw 1/2 less cards.

-Decks formed of low quanta cost cards/rush decks. While you may play all the 2/3 cards you draw the turn you use the shard, your opponent might have to wait for quanta production. Thus it might not be as good for your opponent as is for you. (albeit the card comes together with the nova/snova nerf)

-OTK decks. Where you want to draw your whole deck, although while playing those decks, you will have to keep in your hand the cards you are going to use for the final turn show, wich might ruin your multidraw ability.

-Decks whose winning strategy is deckout. While not very popular at the moment, they might become popular with the addition of this shard. Imagine against a 30 card deck, making it draw 12/18 cards, you only have to stall during 11/5(!!) turns.

-SoSa decks. Your opponent is not likely to do much with the extra cards when you are under the inverted damage effect, while you may need to draw more SoSas to keep you alive.

(note that english is not my native language, also that this post contains more opinions than facts)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: rowcla on March 11, 2012, 06:06:28 AM
Hmm, this is so fitting for cremation rush, i mean, its already ignoring card advantage for speed, so this is going to be AMAZING! too bad i cant chain them in a single turn though...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: abacus on March 14, 2012, 11:02:19 PM
Hmm, this is so fitting for cremation rush, i mean, its already ignoring card advantage for speed, so this is going to be AMAZING! too bad i cant chain them in a single turn though...
This. Like Wizy said, any rush will appreciate it, but it will be absolutely nuts with cremation. It will provide that extra oomph to finish the job when the opponent starts to take back control in midgame.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on March 14, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
this card combines very well with silence to fill the opponent's hand and deny them a turn to force a discard... maybe some kind of  :aether rush will born from this :P? probably a similar deck to Silence is Golden
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Marsu on March 24, 2012, 08:58:45 PM
Can't wait to see how this one will be...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Bleys295 on March 28, 2012, 08:20:38 PM
I like this change to this card. I've always seen fire as a warrior's element and this to me says "Lets fight, give me your best shot!" which is right up fire's thematic alley. This card will have a multitude of uses in it's current form, from speeding up combo decks, to forcing a discard in pestal decks. While not the most upfont with intentions, I actually think this is one of the more ingenious shard ideas.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ~Napalm on March 29, 2012, 02:10:25 PM
I've already stated that I prefer Courage as the name, but I wonder if the ability would be more interesting this way:

"Your opponent draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, one additional if your mark is :fire ."

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 29, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
I've already stated that I prefer Courage as the name, but I wonder if the ability would be more interesting this way:

"Your opponent draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, one additional if your mark is :fire ."




ermm, aren't the effects the same?? your opponents still draw like you. i don really see the difference...

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on March 29, 2012, 03:34:32 PM
I've already stated that I prefer Courage as the name, but I wonder if the ability would be more interesting this way:

"Your opponent draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, one additional if your mark is :fire ."




ermm, aren't the effects the same?? your opponents still draw like you. i don really see the difference...

Just a thought.
no. you can only draw as much as your opponent and if you have mark of  :fire, that number of cards potentially rises to 3 instead of 2. With the version Napalm suggested, if you have mark of  :fire at least you gat one extra card than your opponent, effectivily giving you card advantage
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Picheleiro on March 29, 2012, 03:39:32 PM
Well I dont co

no. you can only draw as much as your opponent and if you have mark of  :fire, that number of cards potentially rises to 3 instead of 2. With the version Napalm suggested, if you have mark of  :fire at least you gat one extra card than your opponent, effectivily giving you card advantage
Current effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2(+1 if  :fire mark) and you draw exactly the same. Best possibility: You get x cards and your opponent gets x+1.

Napalm effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2 cards and you draw exactly the same +1. Best possibility: Both get x cards.


Iīm counting the SoB like -1 card. You get 3 new cards but spend one, but your rival get 3 cards with no cost. And that is with the  :fire mark.

Itīs more about play fast than card advantage. I think.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Absol on March 29, 2012, 03:44:37 PM
Well I dont co

no. you can only draw as much as your opponent and if you have mark of  :fire, that number of cards potentially rises to 3 instead of 2. With the version Napalm suggested, if you have mark of  :fire at least you gat one extra card than your opponent, effectivily giving you card advantage
Current effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2(+1 if  :fire mark) and you draw exactly the same. Best possibility: You get x cards and your opponent gets x+1.

Napalm effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2 cards and you draw exactly the same +1. Best possibility: Both get x cards.


Iīm counting the SoB like -1 card. You get 3 new cards but spend one, but your rival get 3 cards with no cost. And that is with the  :fire mark.

Itīs more about play fast than card advantage. I think.
Now that you mention it, this sounds fair to give equal card advantage.
Remember that a card slot is also a cost.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on March 29, 2012, 03:45:40 PM
Current effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2(+1 if  :fire mark) and you draw exactly the same. Best possibility: You get x cards and your opponent gets x+1.

Napalm effect: Spend one card. Your opponent draw 2 cards and you draw exactly the same +1. Best possibility: Both get x cards.


Iīm counting the SoB like -1 card. You get 3 new cards but spend one, but your rival get 3 cards with no cost. And that is with the  :fire mark.

Itīs more about play fast than card advantage. I think.
True. Usually i dont account for the card itself wich is wrong, but the fact that you get the cards in your turn can make all the difference indeed
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Picheleiro on March 29, 2012, 03:49:52 PM
Now that you mention it, this sounds fair to give equal card advantage.
Remember that a card slot is also a cost.
Are you talking about fill the opponent hand?

I never though it. Really. Itīs the best setting to play this card, I guess.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on March 29, 2012, 04:21:59 PM
thanks guys for the explanation. in this case i prefer napalm version. the user of the card sud have an advantage
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Absol on March 29, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
thanks guys for the explanation. in this case i prefer napalm version. the user of the card sud have an advantage
Or at least not a disadvantage. He have to pay quanta + card slot to get 2 (3) cards. Net gain = 1 (2) card. Opponent net gain = 2 (3) cards.
Napalm's version, net gain = 2 (3) = opponent net gain.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Essence on March 29, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
^^ Agreed 100%.  I like the Napalm version quite a bit.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Thalas on March 29, 2012, 08:46:41 PM

"Your opponent draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, one additional if your mark is :fire ."
It's nice idea, but it hurts the versatility of the card. Current SoB can be used also as Deckouter in stalls.

Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: abacus on March 30, 2012, 06:21:03 AM
Try the weaker version first and see. I have the feeling that the card shouldn't be neutral in terms of card advantage because it gives you a massive tempo boost.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ~Napalm on March 30, 2012, 02:56:35 PM
I'll be honest. When I was messing around with it in the Trainer, I was INFURIATED by the fact that the amount of cards I could draw is 100% dependent on the space left in my opponents hand. If they don't have any space... I can't draw any cards. I really don't like being beholden to my opponent, thus the minor yet drastic change I suggested. I really don't see this being useful as a deckout card as it is, but maybe that's because I'm generally blind to that side of things anyway.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on March 30, 2012, 02:59:32 PM
I'll be honest. When I was messing around with it in the Trainer, I was INFURIATED by the fact that the amount of cards I could draw is 100% dependent on the space left in my opponents hand. If they don't have any space... I can't draw any cards. I really don't like being beholden to my opponent, thus the minor yet drastic change I suggested. I really don't see this being useful as a deckout card as it is, but maybe that's because I'm generally blind to that side of things anyway.
But you have to admit that before SoB got this nerf, it was immensely overpowered. It allowed some decks to have a ttw of 3 or less, wich is tremendously fast and unfair. With the right setup you could draw all of your deck on turn 1 and the opponent couldnt do a thing...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ~Napalm on March 30, 2012, 03:55:35 PM
Oh absolutely. There's no arguing that the original form was quite OP. I just wish I had a wee bit more freedom with it is all.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: EvilDeathX on March 30, 2012, 07:04:48 PM
Lol, this plus Silence. 8)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Max Fire on March 30, 2012, 08:00:29 PM
What do you think about this version :

Your opponent discard 1 card and draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, +1 more if your mark is fire .
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on March 30, 2012, 08:08:52 PM
What do you think about this version :

Your opponent discard 1 card and draws 2 cards. Draw an equal amount of cards, +1 more if your mark is fire .
it doesnt fit thematicaly
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Max Fire on March 31, 2012, 10:55:33 AM
Ok, but the theme of drawing doesn't fit as a fire theme.
So if we want to change the theme of the SoB I have this idea :

"The cost of cards you play is reduced by 1, 2 on your  :fire cards".

I think it fit more to the concept of bravery : I go to the battlefield even if i'm not well payed.

The opposite mechanism could be introduced to aether with an augmentation of the cost of cards your opponent plays.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Silver on April 02, 2012, 03:08:37 AM
Maybe we need cards that are better the more cards are in the opponent's hand. Like that Harpy idea...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Cunning_Wish on April 02, 2012, 09:34:08 AM
The only powerful purposes I think

It is let your opponent draw all his deck than you and let him no card to draw and win :fire

this card cost3,cost a card from hand ,can't do somethings help battleground,can't bring you advantage of you hand card. In most cases ,it is useless.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: glennfoo on April 02, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
just wondering. if both you and your opponent has 1 card left in the deck, and you use SoB, who will lose first?? both you and ai atm have 3 cards in hand..
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Absol on April 02, 2012, 12:51:53 PM
just wondering. if both you and your opponent has 1 card left in the deck, and you use SoB, who will lose first?? both you and ai atm have 3 cards in hand..
Answered here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21501.msg509063#msg509063).
In short: you lost.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 02, 2012, 12:57:35 PM
just wondering. if both you and your opponent has 1 card left in the deck, and you use SoB, who will lose first?? both you and ai atm have 3 cards in hand..
not sure but if your opponent only draws one card because you cant make him deckout on your turn, you will also draw one card only
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: pisul on April 19, 2012, 06:39:20 PM
I want this shards so badly, i allready got idea to deck with em.... arena im coming
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 21, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
this is nonsence...
a life shard healing makes sence
a light shard improving you're max life makes sence
a earth shard combining other shards make sence
a wind shard working as something that helps everything that flyes makes sence

but this shard is totaly weird... since when is fire to draw?? if you want to have it it should be time one
this shard in my opinion should be something (like every fire card is designed for) to kill.
explosions destroy permanents rage potions and fire bolt kill creatures (rage potion also work as something to increase attack power (to kill him faster)
all creatures are also designed to kill. so this shard should either have something close to gravity shard or something like:
make you're oponent discard 1 card (his choice) 2 if you're mark is fire. the sanctuary would of course counter this. i belive this ability should then change it's cost.


in other point:
seriosly? gravity shard was released like that? you can anialate people just by using them with some catapults
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Zesh on April 21, 2012, 11:00:55 AM
this is nonsence...
a life shard healing makes sence
a light shard improving you're max life makes sence
a earth shard combining other shards make sence
a wind shard working as something that helps everything that flyes makes sence

but this shard is totaly weird... since when is fire to draw?? if you want to have it it should be time one
this shard in my opinion should be something (like every fire card is designed for) to kill.
explosions destroy permanents rage potions and fire bolt kill creatures (rage potion also work as something to increase attack power (to kill him faster)
all creatures are also designed to kill. so this shard should either have something close to gravity shard or something like:
make you're oponent discard 1 card (his choice) 2 if you're mark is fire. the sanctuary would of course counter this. i belive this ability should then change it's cost.


in other point:
seriosly? gravity shard was released like that? you can anialate people just by using them with some catapults

Well yes!! i think carddraw should be a time ability, not designed for fire. agree
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 21, 2012, 11:07:32 AM
speed relates to fire... and its not only you that draws, your opponent will also draw as much as you, so no card advantage. what you really gain from the shard is a great draw acceleration for both decks, with the advantage that you can play your draws first, wich is perfect for rushes and overall, relates better to  :fire than  :time
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OldTrees on April 21, 2012, 08:18:17 PM
If SoBe were the Time shard then it would not give the opponent any draws. [P -> Q]
It gives the opponent draws. [!Q]
SoBe would not fit as a Time Shard. [!Q -> !P]
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: darkrobe on April 22, 2012, 12:24:45 AM
I think the thematics of burning through both players decks is fine. Time usually slows the oponent and speeds you up. its not quite the same to have both players getting sped up.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: AP579 on April 22, 2012, 01:14:44 AM
I agree. Someone said before that fire is about harming yourself to make yourself better, which fits RPs and the low HP creatures.
Fire is also about speed.
Putting together comes with this. Not sure if drawing would really be the niche for this, but it fits thematically.

Also, people are still calling it SoB as opposed to SoBe. I guess it just won't catch on...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: darkrobe on April 22, 2012, 03:35:48 AM
why SoBe as apposed to SoBr? Be makes me think of Beryllium.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 22, 2012, 03:43:14 AM
why SoBe as apposed to SoBr? Be makes me think of Beryllium.

Thats the term zanz coined for it, supposed to be like the drink.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: RRQJ on April 22, 2012, 07:17:36 AM
why SoBe as apposed to SoBr? Be makes me think of Beryllium.

Br doesn't make you think of Bromium?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Hyroen on April 22, 2012, 07:50:40 AM
It would make me think of Bromine.  :P
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: darkrobe on April 22, 2012, 03:07:46 PM
it could, but Br is more likely to make me think of Bravery than Be will make me think of Bravery.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: RRQJ on April 22, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
It would make me think of Bromine.  :P

I blame typing that at 3 am. >.>
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 22, 2012, 06:16:15 PM
do anyone realy want to use the shards to make oponent deck out??
it's silly unless you are planing on adding 1 or 2 to make it faster however fire is not the element you will use if you want to deck oponents out
everything related to draws should be for time and related with destruction with fire. if you say fire is about sacrifice then it should have Sosa and death should have something like both players don't draw for 2 turns (related with slowing down to make poison worth)
despite i don't agree fire is about sacrifice.
in my opinion fire is all about rush/KILL once everything they have have massive attack and low defence , speels try to take defence for more attack power and there is lot's of cards to work as CC and PC (even the shield don't protect you at all, will just start killing everyone) the only defence fire have is the ability to destroy everithing cause they don't have anything like quintenescence, anubis, imortal creatures (well... i don't agree with this new card ability.... it's non sence...) or protect artifacts.
whatever fire shard should be, should be about killing/damaging and not draw (despite that's what most fire elementals want) but if it's like that what most aether elementals whant shall be some PC will anyone agree in giving them? NO if they whant they will get a fire mark with some explosions so as gravity will want more damage or fire more hp or healing BUT: every element should do it's job and should not be alowed to a fire deck to have CC PC draw healing damage and healty creatures (the same should not hapen to any other element) which is also why i am against most shards
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 22, 2012, 06:21:20 PM
you have to understand that what defines every element from the others is not made out od a strict frontier, their definitions may "mix" on some of their aspects. Without those grey areas within the 12 element's definitions, there wouldnt be any thematic synergy between any one of them AND it would seriously limit what you could in theory be able to do in each element, wich is incorrect
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 22, 2012, 06:30:00 PM
do anyone realy want to use the shards to make oponent deck out??
it's silly unless you are planing on adding 1 or 2 to make it faster however fire is not the element you will use if you want to deck oponents out
everything related to draws should be for time and related with destruction with fire. if you say fire is about sacrifice then it should have Sosa and death should have something like both players don't draw for 2 turns (related with slowing down to make poison worth)
despite i don't agree fire is about sacrifice.
in my opinion fire is all about rush/KILL once everything they have have massive attack and low defence , speels try to take defence for more attack power and there is lot's of cards to work as CC and PC (even the shield don't protect you at all, will just start killing everyone) the only defence fire have is the ability to destroy everithing cause they don't have anything like quintenescence, anubis, imortal creatures (well... i don't agree with this new card ability.... it's non sence...) or protect artifacts.
whatever fire shard should be, should be about killing/damaging and not draw (despite that's what most fire elementals want) but if it's like that what most aether elementals whant shall be some PC will anyone agree in giving them? NO if they whant they will get a fire mark with some explosions so as gravity will want more damage or fire more hp or healing BUT: every element should do it's job and should not be alowed to a fire deck to have CC PC draw healing damage and healty creatures (the same should not hapen to any other element) which is also why i am against most shards

No matter what you believe, SoB works the best in a fire deck, specifically an immorush.  Fire is about reckless destruction.  This shard fits in because it allows you to rush and get out lots of damage quickly, while giving your opponent the same advantage.  However, it works best in fire because fire has access to cremation.  This can generate almost unlimited quanta as fast as you draw the cards. Other decks are hampered by having to store up quanta.  This shard simply makes fire even faster.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Higurashi on April 22, 2012, 06:47:28 PM
To add to those facts, there's the fact that Cremation decks are combo decks. What do combo decks want the most? Drawing power. They benefit the most from it out of any deck type because they rely on more than one card to achieve an effect that's greater in some way to a normal deck.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 22, 2012, 07:24:12 PM
oh in that case why don't you just make the cards based on a deck???
you get something that generates fire other than have 30 attack for 0 quanta other that alows you to draw all the cards you whant and other that makes you not deck out ??

the answer is because it's a absurd cards are suposed to be pownded the same way zanz would not whant a life lance that would take more damage depending on you're life quanta and why? because there is already thing like solar shield and rustler that can give you unlimed life quanta and so that "life lance" would be extreamly OP.
so this game is not suposed to be all about having something like 3 amazing cards in one elements cause if that hapens all you will see will be decks using those 3 cards or decks specified in countering those first ones
is that what you whant from elements to be?? something all about lucky in using the rush fire or the counter to it??
that would turn elements like the spin of the coin... either you have the counter and you win or you have the rush and you lose...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 22, 2012, 07:27:52 PM
oh in that case why don't you just make the cards based on a deck???
you get something that generates fire other than have 30 attack for 0 quanta other that alows you to draw all the cards you whant and other that makes you not deck out ??

the answer is because it's a absurd cards are suposed to be pownded the same way zanz would not whant a life lance that would take more damage depending on you're life quanta and why? because there is already thing like solar shield and rustler that can give you unlimed life quanta and so that "life lance" would be extreamly OP.
so this game is not suposed to be all about having something like 3 amazing cards in one elements cause if that hapens all you will see will be decks using those 3 cards or decks specified in countering those first ones
is that what you whant from elements to be?? something all about lucky in using the rush fire or the counter to it??
that would turn elements like the spin of the coin... either you have the counter and you win or you have the rush and you lose...

Immo/cremationrushes still lose to a LOT of decks.  Not to mention anything with silence or sancs copmletely destroys sob.  All it is is an enhancer.  If you run a deck solely off of cremations, you can only fit in so many creatures.  For example, 3 rubies and 6 MP's.  This is the amount of quanta you get from 6 cremations, and that doesn't factor in Explosions or anything else.  All decks have counters.  The one I'm running right now fails horribly compared to creature control.  Remember, when you SoB, the opponent draws just as many cards as you, just as much of a chance for creature control.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 22, 2012, 07:35:42 PM
1> of course it lose against many decks but with that shard will lose against way less
2> don't whant to compare the difrence that drawing 3 cards is for a 30 card deck and for a 60 card deck
in a 30 card deck it's extremly powerfull as for a 60 card deck it will just help
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ddevans96 on April 22, 2012, 07:42:41 PM
Also, people are still calling it SoB as opposed to SoBe. I guess it just won't catch on...

SoX as and abbreviation for Shard of Sacrifice took a while to catch on too, but eventually it did. I think SoBe will too :)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 22, 2012, 07:43:52 PM
1> of course it lose against many decks but with that shard will lose against way less
2> don't whant to compare the difrence that drawing 3 cards is for a 30 card deck and for a 60 card deck
in a 30 card deck it's extremly powerfull as for a 60 card deck it will just help

It's a rare that improves win rate... hmm?
Instosis focuses on Sor, coudln't win without it. 
Poisondials uses sosac/sod helps it win a lot.
Splat uses ^ Probably couldn't win without it. 
Silence is golden uses sor/nymphs-amazing when it works, needs the rares
SS/Miracle stalls work because of miracle (and sod helps)
Sor Pharoahs allow you to actually use pharoahs in a mono.

SHARDS ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE DECKS BETTER
Why would you put them in a deck if you didn't?
As to SoB, it only makes games end faster, which makes grinding less boring.  As long as opponent is upped, they can get out quanta quickly too, and all it takes is an otyguy, or a couple freezes, or a single dimmshield, and the deck loses.  Draw a sundial in those extra 2/3 cards and you just essentially increased the win time by a turn.  If you can chain, you can dismantle an immorush.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 22, 2012, 08:30:39 PM
1> of course it lose against many decks but with that shard will lose against way less
2> don't whant to compare the difrence that drawing 3 cards is for a 30 card deck and for a 60 card deck
in a 30 card deck it's extremly powerfull as for a 60 card deck it will just help

It's a rare that improves win rate... hmm?
Instosis focuses on Sor, coudln't win without it. 
Poisondials uses sosac/sod helps it win a lot.
Splat uses ^ Probably couldn't win without it. 
Silence is golden uses sor/nymphs-amazing when it works, needs the rares
SS/Miracle stalls work because of miracle (and sod helps)
Sor Pharoahs allow you to actually use pharoahs in a mono.

SHARDS ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE DECKS BETTER
Why would you put them in a deck if you didn't?
As to SoB, it only makes games end faster, which makes grinding less boring.  As long as opponent is upped, they can get out quanta quickly too, and all it takes is an otyguy, or a couple freezes, or a single dimmshield, and the deck loses.  Draw a sundial in those extra 2/3 cards and you just essentially increased the win time by a turn.  If you can chain, you can dismantle an immorush.


it's clear that you don't go platium trying to farm....
half the guys in platium use shards and half of those have they're deck's based on them.

i was making a mistake in last post cause i where like saying SObe is OP but i don't think he is... i just think it's totaly nonsence... it's not fire job to draw multiple times THAT'S FOR TIME and once people start getting 6 SObe you will see that time decks will start to end.... as people can already use time advantage withouth having to use time quanta so you will probably see those shards in decks like shiriek rush, life rush, fire rush, death rush....
and well you can say they give the same amount of cards to bouth players but it's not true: if you're oponent get's a full hand he will not draw next turn so you got 1 card more than him. but still i don't want to convince you to nerf it, i want it to completely change as it is non sence to give a card with the skill of time making it avaliable to any element
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 22, 2012, 08:39:20 PM
1> of course it lose against many decks but with that shard will lose against way less
2> don't whant to compare the difrence that drawing 3 cards is for a 30 card deck and for a 60 card deck
in a 30 card deck it's extremly powerfull as for a 60 card deck it will just help

It's a rare that improves win rate... hmm?
Instosis focuses on Sor, coudln't win without it. 
Poisondials uses sosac/sod helps it win a lot.
Splat uses ^ Probably couldn't win without it. 
Silence is golden uses sor/nymphs-amazing when it works, needs the rares
SS/Miracle stalls work because of miracle (and sod helps)
Sor Pharoahs allow you to actually use pharoahs in a mono.

SHARDS ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE DECKS BETTER
Why would you put them in a deck if you didn't?
As to SoB, it only makes games end faster, which makes grinding less boring.  As long as opponent is upped, they can get out quanta quickly too, and all it takes is an otyguy, or a couple freezes, or a single dimmshield, and the deck loses.  Draw a sundial in those extra 2/3 cards and you just essentially increased the win time by a turn.  If you can chain, you can dismantle an immorush.


it's clear that you don't go platium trying to farm....
half the guys in platium use shards and half of those have they're deck's based on them.

i was making a mistake in last post cause i where like saying SObe is OP but i don't think he is... i just think it's totaly nonsence... it's not fire job to draw multiple times THAT'S FOR TIME and once people start getting 6 SObe you will see that time decks will start to end.... as people can already use time advantage withouth having to use time quanta so you will probably see those shards in decks like shiriek rush, life rush, fire rush, death rush....
and well you can say they give the same amount of cards to bouth players but it's not true: if you're oponent get's a full hand he will not draw next turn so you got 1 card more than him. but still i don't want to convince you to nerf it, i want it to completely change as it is non sence to give a card with the skill of time making it avaliable to any element

if only  :time was allowed to have draw, :life should be the only one with healing,  :fire should be the only one with PC,  :death should be the only one with CC... your argument is invalid

also, Sobe is not a  :fire card, it just works better in a deck using a  :fire mark
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dspn23 on April 22, 2012, 08:45:22 PM
i don't understand you're "fire with PC" and "death with CC" death barely have CC only poison...
what i pretend to say is that every elements should be the better to heal/draw ....
this could not work having 1 element for CC or PC but shurely can having only 1 for healing or draw.
however i will stop talking about this as what should realy change is SoF cause it's extreamly OP....
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 22, 2012, 08:53:12 PM
1> of course it lose against many decks but with that shard will lose against way less
2> don't whant to compare the difrence that drawing 3 cards is for a 30 card deck and for a 60 card deck
in a 30 card deck it's extremly powerfull as for a 60 card deck it will just help

It's a rare that improves win rate... hmm?
Instosis focuses on Sor, coudln't win without it. 
Poisondials uses sosac/sod helps it win a lot.
Splat uses ^ Probably couldn't win without it. 
Silence is golden uses sor/nymphs-amazing when it works, needs the rares
SS/Miracle stalls work because of miracle (and sod helps)
Sor Pharoahs allow you to actually use pharoahs in a mono.

SHARDS ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE DECKS BETTER
Why would you put them in a deck if you didn't?
As to SoB, it only makes games end faster, which makes grinding less boring.  As long as opponent is upped, they can get out quanta quickly too, and all it takes is an otyguy, or a couple freezes, or a single dimmshield, and the deck loses.  Draw a sundial in those extra 2/3 cards and you just essentially increased the win time by a turn.  If you can chain, you can dismantle an immorush.


it's clear that you don't go platium trying to farm....
half the guys in platium use shards and half of those have they're deck's based on them.

i was making a mistake in last post cause i where like saying SObe is OP but i don't think he is... i just think it's totaly nonsence... it's not fire job to draw multiple times THAT'S FOR TIME and once people start getting 6 SObe you will see that time decks will start to end.... as people can already use time advantage withouth having to use time quanta so you will probably see those shards in decks like shiriek rush, life rush, fire rush, death rush....
and well you can say they give the same amount of cards to bouth players but it's not true: if you're oponent get's a full hand he will not draw next turn so you got 1 card more than him. but still i don't want to convince you to nerf it, i want it to completely change as it is non sence to give a card with the skill of time making it avaliable to any element
Actually, I do farm Platinum, well gold since platinums winnings dropped.  It's true that half of the people have shards, but decks based on them? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, your saying that the main strategy is to use shards? That would only be the new SoI decks.  Even splat/poisondials are based on poison, its just that they use sosac for defense, and besides, theres a lot less of them than monodarks, supernova bows, and other decks.  As to fire vs. time.  Time is based on getting ahead of your opponent by speeding you up and slowing them down. (Precog, hourglass, RT, Eternity, procrastination) Fire is all about reckless rushing.  Basically all monofires are immorushes (firestalls use light most of the time).  Time's shard would either prevent opponent from drawing, or allow you to draw.  This helps you both, as you hope that you can get out quanta and creatures faster (that's gamblin/being reckless btw). 
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: RRQJ on April 22, 2012, 11:41:47 PM
dspn23's opinion is that drawing cards (of any form, regardless of what other effects are involved) should be exclusive to time.  Everything you're saying in an attempt to convince him that the shard is appropriate does not address that particular point, which is why he's not buying your argument.  Unless you can figure out how to convince him that drawing cards should not be exclusive to time (and you probably won't, seeing as it's an opinion that can't be supported or refuted), you can only agree to disagree.

It's similar to how some people dislike having "ignore shields" on non-gravity cards.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: darkrobe on April 23, 2012, 01:27:46 AM
How about this. Elements is a card game. Regardless of the element you play (be it :fire, :life, :aether, :darkness, etc) you will at some point have to "draw a card". thus drawing cards is not specific to any one element.

Drawing cards faster than your opponent is what distinguishes :time. SoBravery does not do that. thus it is not particularly  :time - ish.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on April 23, 2012, 01:29:51 AM
The problem is that some of us would like to see a definite thematic reasoning for the Shard.  Personally, I do not see how Bravery correlates with quicker drawing.  Maybe Recklessness, but not Bravery.  I'm sure there's some thin line that could be used though...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: darkrobe on April 23, 2012, 01:33:55 AM
hmmmm, charging forward into battle, regardless of what advantages that might give your opponent, because you trust in your own skill and cause...Bravery. (i really dont see why this is thematically difficult)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on April 23, 2012, 01:40:25 AM
Well, I see that as Recklessness as opposed to Bravery.  But everyone has their own interpretations, and this is merely my own...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Chapuz on April 23, 2012, 02:21:04 AM
Come on, SoBr is a thematical card, and it ROCKS.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: RRQJ on April 23, 2012, 02:27:33 AM
recklessness and bravery are not opposites; they are actually closely related.  They're opposite only in connotation (reckless is "bad" while brave is "good").

Example: You go sky diving.  Someone can say you're really brave (to express approval) or you're really reckless (to express disapproval). In both cases, though, they're acknowledging the fact that you're doing something most others won't do.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Drake_XIV on April 23, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Understood.  It's just a bit of nitpickiness on my part.  I've already accepted the shard since I'm probably never going to get it.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Gemini on April 23, 2012, 11:13:11 PM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 23, 2012, 11:15:25 PM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...

how does this shard syncs well with devourer?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Laxadarap on April 24, 2012, 12:27:08 AM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...

how does this shard syncs well with devourer?

Strength of SoB is that it allows you both to draw cards faster.  Simply put, the player who can play more of their cards faster (faster quanta generation) is the one that wins/takes advantage of it.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Gemini on April 24, 2012, 12:48:57 AM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...

how does this shard syncs well with devourer?

Strength of SoB is that it allows you both to draw cards faster.  Simply put, the player who can play more of their cards faster (faster quanta generation) is the one that wins/takes advantage of it.
He got my idea through, I was reffering the specific power of Devourer to clog up an opponentīs hand as their mana wont be really being brought in... Anyways back to thinking as I refuse to admit that Gargoyle Rage is the best I can think of.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on April 24, 2012, 01:02:59 AM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...

how does this shard syncs well with devourer?

Strength of SoB is that it allows you both to draw cards faster.  Simply put, the player who can play more of their cards faster (faster quanta generation) is the one that wins/takes advantage of it.
He got my idea through, I was reffering the specific power of Devourer to clog up an opponentīs hand as their mana wont be really being brought in... Anyways back to thinking as I refuse to admit that Gargoyle Rage is the best I can think of.

Raging dolls much? you dont want to clog up your opponents hand when using SoB or you wont be able to draw 2 or 3 cards...
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Jocko on May 17, 2012, 03:46:05 AM
Does anyone know if zanz was inspired by this (or any other card) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html ?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Asinickle on June 12, 2012, 10:52:43 PM
This is the moment where I wish my fire rush deck had a fire mark, rather than earth.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: vivimancer on June 13, 2012, 09:52:29 AM
This is the moment where I wish my fire rush deck had a fire mark, rather than earth.

haha this + 1
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: The Devourer King on October 03, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
So this card, does it give only the amount of spaces that the opponent has? (ie 2 spaces give 2, 1 space gives 1)>
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Poker Alho on October 03, 2012, 09:47:29 PM
So this card, does it give only the amount of spaces that the opponent has? (ie 2 spaces give 2, 1 space gives 1)>

yup, you can only draw as much cards as your opponent does when using SoBe
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: OdinVanguard on October 04, 2012, 12:29:36 AM
An interesting card, and it syncs well with Devourerīs now to think of an effective fire and darkness deck...

how does this shard syncs well with devourer?

Strength of SoB is that it allows you both to draw cards faster.  Simply put, the player who can play more of their cards faster (faster quanta generation) is the one that wins/takes advantage of it.
An alternate strength (though somewhat more situational) is that it can force opponent to draw faster without increasing your rate (if used cleverly)

For instance. If your hand is full but opponents is near empty and you cast SoB, the opponent will draw 3 cards while you will draw only 1 (to replace the shard). This can be an interesting means of mitigating loss due to deck out.
Title: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: willng3 on December 31, 2012, 08:19:16 PM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/8420/sobe.png)

Discuss.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 31, 2012, 08:27:04 PM
It's no longer rainbow, which is nice.... but now it's also cheaper.

Compare:


I get the feeling that this shard's power hasn't changed much at all - it still only takes a Nova to power a fully upgraded one, and a Supernova to power the unupgraded one. At worst, you'll spend 2 Nova + 1 SoB to draw 2 cards, which is 3-for-2 (3-for-3 if you're running a fire mark.), and breaking even isn't bad when you have 12-22 more quanta and 2 cards to play it with.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: dragonsdemesne on December 31, 2012, 08:39:22 PM
I think it should have a +2 increased cost.  Just comparing it to how it was used before in 1.31 and how it performed in various decks there, I think that would be appropriate.  A 1 cost is too fast.  Even a 2 cost feels too cheap, when 1 supernova can get it out.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: jawdirk on December 31, 2012, 10:39:46 PM
SoB is often a dead card. It is at best net 0 card advantage, and typically -1 card advantage. I don't think it is too cheap. If anything, fire's OP rush should be nerfed before SoB. I like that SoB can still be splashed in decks powered by nova/SN. Some of the most interesting decks are combo-dependent and SoB can give them a little help.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 31, 2012, 11:08:02 PM
SoB is often a dead card. It is at best net 0 card advantage, and typically -1 card advantage. I don't think it is too cheap. If anything, fire's OP rush should be nerfed before SoB. I like that SoB can still be splashed in decks powered by nova/SN. Some of the most interesting decks are combo-dependent and SoB can give them a little help.
Fire's rushpower was already nerfed in the form of a weaker Immolation/Phoenix combo and more expensive Explosion.

You probably won't worry about what three cards the opponent draws considering that you'll have much greater tempo than him in a rush deck and can play your threats quicker, unless your opponent also happens to be using a fire rush. Alternatively, you can attempt to quickly draw into a Shard of Integrity, which results in a big golem an opponent without Reverse Time will have issues with. (And considering how cheap shards are, it should be easy generate the quanta to just replay an RT'd golem). I think the issue comes from the speed burst this card provides to certain decks, as opposed to the how the decks are supposed to work.

(Sidenote : On a single-card scale, 3-for-1 in any form of card draw is much better than 1-for-1 in card draw in games since you get more options.)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: jawdirk on January 01, 2013, 09:02:20 PM
Fire's rushpower was already nerfed in the form of a weaker Immolation/Phoenix combo and more expensive Explosion.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed again. It is still easily the most efficient rush. It is more fragile than :life, but I don't think anyone would say :life is more powerful.

Quote
(Sidenote : On a single-card scale, 3-for-1 in any form of card draw is much better than 1-for-1 in card draw in games since you get more options.)
Yes, I agree, precognition is weak compared to SoB, but precognition is of such marginal utility that people debate its effectiveness even in decks that should most benefit from it.

Maybe a more important question is, would you expect any non-mono fire rush decks to use SoB if it stays with the current cost? If the answer is no (presumably because they are not fast enough vs. mono-fire) then we should either nerf SoB or something else in mono-fire. If the answer is yes, then we shouldn't nerf them (relative to mono-fire) by putting the cost of SoB out of reach for them.

Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 01, 2013, 09:23:09 PM
Fire's rushpower was already nerfed in the form of a weaker Immolation/Phoenix combo and more expensive Explosion.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed again. It is still easily the most efficient rush. It is more fragile than :life, but I don't think anyone would say :life is more powerful.
IMHO, that is more a lack of element completion itself rather than a power imbalance - Life doesn't have quantum acceleration, CC, or PC, while Fire does (Life in general doesn't have many options in mono). Nerfing elements into the ground doesn't sound as good as giving elements what they need - I would rather have a more fast, versatile life than singular :life and a subpar :fire . (That could be a matter of opinion, though.)

Quote
Yes, I agree, precognition is weak compared to SoB, but precognition is of such marginal utility that people debate its effectiveness even in decks that should most benefit from it.

Maybe a more important question is, would you expect any non-mono fire rush decks to use SoB if it stays with the current cost? If the answer is no (presumably because they are not fast enough vs. mono-fire) then we should either nerf SoB or something else in mono-fire. If the answer is yes, then we shouldn't nerf them (relative to mono-fire) by putting the cost of SoB out of reach for them.
I disagree with precognition's lack of utility. Cantrips exist to thin your deck below the minimum size, so Precognition is meant for speedy decks that want 24 cards instead of 30 to increase consistency. Golden Hourglass tends to be used more often since it's just better to have the chance of getting several draws out of one card.

SoBravery is low-costed enough to be run off a :fire mark and nothing else, which is only encouraged by it's mark bonus. I think that a mono deck that previously used 5 :rainbow | 3 :rainbow SoBraverys could easily retain the same efficiency with a mark switch and some quanta adjustment - granted, the deck is now a duo instead of a mono, but the potential draw advantage is much better than a same deck that runs a Time mark and Precognition since you can effectively cut 18 cards from a deck's total size as opposed to 6.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: jawdirk on January 02, 2013, 12:26:01 AM
I disagree with precognition's lack of utility. Cantrips exist to thin your deck below the minimum size, so Precognition is meant for speedy decks that want 24 cards instead of 30 to increase consistency. Golden Hourglass tends to be used more often since it's just better to have the chance of getting several draws out of one card.

I'm not arguing that the effect of thinning your deck by 1 is useless, I'm arguing that doing it for 1 :time is questionable. It's debatable whether that effect is ever worth 1 :underworld. In my experience, it is not, simply because precognition is a dead card until you have  :time, and because it is bad on the first turn when every :time is precious.

Quote
SoBravery is low-costed enough to be run off a :fire mark and nothing else, which is only encouraged by it's mark bonus. I think that a mono deck that previously used 5 :rainbow | 3 :rainbow SoBraverys could easily retain the same efficiency with a mark switch and some quanta adjustment - granted, the deck is now a duo instead of a mono, but the potential draw advantage is much better than a same deck that runs a Time mark and Precognition since you can effectively cut 18 cards from a deck's total size as opposed to 6.

Sure, but just because SoB is way better than precognition doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. I'm saying that precognition is not a good baseline (because it is so weak and hard to quantify). I would go so far as to say that SoB is a better card than precognition. Heck, if it were up to me, I would probably replace precognition with SoB and make it a time card.

SoB is itself hard to quantify, and it is always risky to include it in your deck. It is a good, interesting card, that promotes interesting decks, and that is true independent of whether it also happens to supercharge mono- :fire rush. But increasing its cost in :fire just makes it less interesting and prevents its use in more interesting decks.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: asymmetry on May 08, 2013, 12:30:02 PM
Sorry if this has been dealt with before. Scenario:

I was playing against Lionheart with  eaglgenes101's Voodoo bravery
3 cards in my deck, my hp intact, inminent eternity (=getting hit) , plenty of room in my hand, needed TU... Heck, let's draw!
GAME OVER
Wut?

Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Chapuz on May 08, 2013, 01:55:30 PM
Sorry if this has been dealt with before. Scenario:

I was playing against Lionheart with  eaglgenes101's Voodoo bravery
3 cards in my deck, my hp intact, inminent eternity (=getting hit) , plenty of room in my hand, needed TU... Heck, let's draw!
GAME OVER
Wut?
Known bug, if you get 0 cards in your deck using SoBr you lose.

Off topic, long time no see!!
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Acsabi44 on May 09, 2013, 09:25:20 AM
Off topic, long time no see!!
Lots of old folks coming back :)

Yea I'm totally offing the heck out of the topic
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: traceurling on May 18, 2013, 06:05:08 PM
Does emerald shield affect this spell?
Also do you guys prefer using this for its draw power or deck out power?
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: xsindomanx on May 18, 2013, 10:25:55 PM
If I use SoB, it's usually for the draw power, and such is the case with most decks.

However, there are some decks that do use SoB to deck out opponent successfully. Example here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,42284.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,42284.0.html)
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: Jangoo on October 27, 2013, 10:19:53 PM

Sorry for the necro.  :P

Concerning SoB and the AI:
Could it be that the AI likes to play like 3 of them in a row
either not minding that its oppents hand (=the players hand) is already full and that they are wasted
OR
cheating somehow and still drawing 2-3 cards for each shard?

Been trying to pay close attention when its the AIs turn but just can't figure out what the hell exactly is happening there.
Title: Re: Shard of Bravery | Shard of Bravery
Post by: MasterofPun on April 06, 2016, 09:28:57 PM
Love the mechanic but fits neither Fire or the name, IMHO.

I think it fits the name - as it both puts you in a bad place... and at a technical disadvantage (1 less card and 2 less  :fire quanta) unless you have a plan in mind. Fire deck is all about hurling yourself toward the enemy hoping for the best (low defense - high attack), so I think it's ok.
blarg: