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babyrousa

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So many rainbow variants, just waste of space <- my words were too much, I admit https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41438#msg41438
« on: March 20, 2010, 09:52:26 am »
<I edited the title reading a couple of replies>

I mean no offence, but,
while I see many anti-FG decks which proudly state their high winning rate(%) against almost all gods, they now seem to be obsolete after the sundial nerf.
So many rainbow variants posted, but they seem to be just wasting forum space.

I have to say no decks deserve the honor to be called  "well-rounded(by Scared Girl)" any more.
How do you guys think about that?

Or, my observation above may be wrong.
Are there any decks in current version(1.20+)  that can beat those "tough Gods" with moderate winning rate?

note:
By "tough Gods", I mean those with strong permanent control, like Divine Glory, Obliterator, Graviton, Hermes, Rainbow. Octane and Dark Matter are also tough ones, but I would exclude these god from my question for some reasons.
By "moderate winning rate", I mean 40%+ or so.

TheNemesis

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41441#msg41441
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2010, 10:06:47 am »
Well add a few more PA and you are ok, no?

Anyway:
Rainbow: use a quantum denial. 6 Gravity nymphs...if you have them.
Divine Glory: Flying Vampire Stiletto.
Graviton: I don't know really...
Hermes: Not much of a problem with rainbow decks if you can set up fast enough to eat his creatures.
Octane is not tough, it is auto-win with mirror shield and still easy if you don't have one. Just get FFO and Otyugh immortalized.
Dark Matter: Impossible. Its quantum denial basically defeats you.

babyrousa

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41458#msg41458
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2010, 11:25:53 am »
Thanks for your reply, TheNemesis.

Well add a few more PA and you are ok, no?
Yeah, that might be the answer, but were you ok with that?
Anti-FG rainbows usually have at least one PA, and it is worth considering adding some more,
but having too much PA decreases overall winning rate of the deck.
I tried having two PAs and three PAs extensively, but extra-PA-approach alone did not
endow my deck(42cards rainbow) with enough resistance to strong permanent control.
I had to find some additional approach, and I'm struggling to make my deck less permanent dependent.

Anyway:
Rainbow: use a quantum denial. 6 Gravity nymphs...if you have them.
Divine Glory: Flying Vampire Stiletto.
Graviton: I don't know really...
Hermes: Not much of a problem with rainbow decks if you can set up fast enough to eat his creatures.
Octane is not tough, it is auto-win with mirror shield and still easy if you don't have one. Just get FFO and Otyugh immortalized.
Dark Matter: Impossible. Its quantum denial basically defeats you.
Well, you can take any meta-deck for a specific god if you knew which god you would face in oracle, but this is not the case.
You don't want to fly your Vamp Stilettoes against Rainbow, nor you don't want to hold 4 Black Holes in your hand against Divine Glory.

Gods also get bad draw, so if I setup relatively fast enough compared to the opponent, there's a chance of winning against tough gods.
But it barely happens, say, 10% or 20% of the time, so I need to boost 20% more.

Dark Matter is the hatchet man for rainbow decks.
I personally think having this kind of god in Lv.6 is good, because they contribute to diversifying meta-game of Lv.6 environment.

Offline xdude

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41460#msg41460
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2010, 11:41:35 am »
Try Pupp's Fg killer, it's really good.
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Andran

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41701#msg41701
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2010, 10:33:31 pm »
I've found that the rainbow decks just work a lot better if you expand them to 50 cards and use the additional cards just for hourglasses, towers and sundials.

In order to gain sufficient speed, use six hourglasses, and in order to make use of the increased speed, add a lot of Quantum Towers. Also, sundials are still a fantastic card if upgraded, so use six of them. Some think sundials are no longer good, but that's just not true. The way to use sundials is to save them up and wait until you would die during the next round. Only then start using them. Since by this time, you will draw 2-4 cards per turn, you can stall the game for up to 12-24 additional cards, after which you play your phase shields for another 12-24+ cards. This will practically guarantee the win. Also, the myth that sundials shouldn't be upgraded is just complete BS. Light quanta is not used for anything, but time quanta is absolutely critical. Using sundials further speeds up the game, since you don't lose a card. It's like a free turn. There was a card in MTG like this, which was completely overpowered. For some reason, it's still in Elements and some people actually think it's not good anymore, go figure...

I am too lazy to keep stats, but I guarantee the win rate is higher if you expand the standard rainbow deck in this way.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41851#msg41851
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 05:37:10 am »
If you use Ivalmian's rainbow deck or Puppychow's rainbow deck (it's nearly identical to what I made in 1.15 and 1.16), you will do fine. Seriously, 40% is nothing. I'm pretty sure you pulled that number out of thin air. Both Puppy's and Ival's decks have over 60% winning rates. Use them. :)

Delreich

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41888#msg41888
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2010, 08:23:25 am »
60% overall win rate, sure, but I doubt they manage that against DG/DM/Rainbow, and I'm not too sure about Obliterator/Graviton/Hermes either.
Then again, what does that matter as long as the overall win rate is high enough?

babyrousa

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41909#msg41909
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 10:13:58 am »
Thanks for your comments, xdude and jmizzle7.

If you use Ivalmian's rainbow deck or Puppychow's rainbow deck (it's nearly identical to what I made in 1.15 and 1.16), you will do fine.
I had tested Puppychow's deck before. Yes, it is a great deck, it sometimes shows very fast setup with 6 super novas. I could beat those easier gods (gods with weak or no permanent cotrol) a bit more and faster, compared to my own deck. But still, there were troubles against those tough gods I've mentioned.
I tried test matches with this deck in February, and my results are here (win-lose):
Divine Glory(3-7), Rainbow(0-10), Obliterator(2-8), Hermes(3-5), Graviton(2-7), Octane(0-8)
Well, 10 matches may not be enough, but it took so long that I could not completed tests for some gods.
Also, since it is difficult to keep my motivation for winning when fighting tough gods as a test, these figures may be worse than actual game.             
For Divine Glory, I beat him three times in a row, while he did nothing but putting his towers, so maybe thanks to RNG.
I was shocked that Rainbow overwhelmed me. It is ok that he sometimes rains his Explosions on my permanents, because that will happen sometimes.
A single Steal on my hourglasses ruined my chance of winning. That's what happened.

I had not tried Ivalmian's rainbow deck, so I've been testing his deck since your suggestion.
After a couple of matches with his deck, yes, it is a fast deck as he says so, but seems to be less consistent.
(I can't talk about consistency of a deck with only a couple of testing, though)
It is a very interesting deck. I'll keep working on this to improve my own.

Seriously, 40% is nothing. I'm pretty sure you pulled that number out of thin air. Both Puppy's and Ival's decks have over 60% winning rates. Use them. :)
Well, there's no ground about that figure(40%), it just seemed to me a viable target on building a versatile deck.
Please note that it is not an overall winning rate against all gods(yeah it is currently 60% or so with my own deck), but against tough gods with strong permanent control.
I wanted to know if there's a deck which is good at in the latter.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions.
Now I feel my words in the title are too much.
Through reading your posts and writing my posts, I came to think about many things.
I might be seeking something that do not exist.

Lastly, getting back to the strong permanent control issue, my current observation goes like this;

There are decks that are almost immune to permanent control, like beat down decks and full burn deck.
These non-control decks which are not dependent on its permanents could be the answer to the gods with strong permanent control, like slow control decks such as rainbow are the answer to gods with strong beat down.

Sadly, these non-control decks can not survive Lv.6 environment, mostly due to the boosted HP of FG.
Thus most types of decks (except control rainbow and mono aether) that the game could afford were eliminated in the highest stage of the game.

That's why I see nothing but many variants of a single type deck. Gods that are hard for the single type of decks are regarded as tough. A change in a single card drastically cuts off winning rate of all players.

There's no diversity in Lv6 category. Diversifying stats(HP, draw and Mark#) of false gods might bring some room for currently eliminated decks.

babyrousa

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41928#msg41928
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 12:04:34 pm »
Tanks for your comments, Andran.

I've found that the rainbow decks just work a lot better if you expand them to 50 cards and use the additional cards just for hourglasses, towers and sundials.

In order to gain sufficient speed, use six hourglasses, and in order to make use of the increased speed, add a lot of Quantum Towers. Also, sundials are still a fantastic card if upgraded, so use six of them. Some think sundials are no longer good, but that's just not true. The way to use sundials is to save them up and wait until you would die during the next round. Only then start using them. Since by this time, you will draw 2-4 cards per turn, you can stall the game for up to 12-24 additional cards, after which you play your phase shields for another 12-24+ cards. This will practically guarantee the win.
It is an interesting idea to expand my deck only to bring in additional draw acceleration.
If I could deploy my hourglasses fast enough, consistency might not be a problem.
Also, with 6 hourglasses, losing some of them to Steals or Explosions will not immediately ruin my chance of winning.
I am going to try your idea.

Also, the myth that sundials shouldn't be upgraded is just complete BS. Light quanta is not used for anything, but time quanta is absolutely critical. Using sundials further speeds up the game, since you don't lose a card. It's like a free turn. There was a card in MTG like this, which was completely overpowered. For some reason, it's still in Elements and some people actually think it's not good anymore, go figure...
About sundial, I totally agree with you.
It is a very powerful card for a defensive deck, yeah it virtually works as Time Walk(MtG) in mid-game.
And yes, it is much better when upgraded, because we need it in a HP critical situation, and when I use up my last Time quantum in hourglasses and drew sundial.
About the myth you mentioned, however I've never heard that, I am wondering if it had been said before the sundial nurf.
     unupgraded:1 Time quantum + 2 Light quantum
     upgraded: 0 Time quantum + 4 Light quantum
Two turn mighty sundials are no more.

Offline harakirinosaru

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Re: So many rainbow variants, just waste of space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg42025#msg42025
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2010, 06:41:08 pm »
It's like a free turn. There was a card in MTG like this, which was completely overpowered. For some reason, it's still in Elements and some people actually think it's not good anymore, go figure...
Elements has too much ridiculous stuff to be governed by the rules of semi-balanced TCGs.

And in Magic, there isn't a Dungeon Master who has 40 life and draws two cards per turn.

 

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