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Offline dragonsdemesneTopic starter

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Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108414#msg1108414
« on: November 09, 2013, 01:08:11 am »
In the interests of helping out newer players, and in a similar format to my arena thread, I'm going to try and design unupped rareless counters for each of the false gods as I spin them from the oracle, in order to help newer players defeat them and hopefully win a few upped cards to get them going earlier.  Basically, each day when I play against the FG, I'll design a deck, and then try it out, and if it wins, or seems to have potential, I'll post it, and each time I get that false god, I'll either try the same counter again (if it works or looks like it should work most of the time) or try another one if it fails, and I'll post a few play tips or things I'm working on in my quest to find a solid counter deck to each.  Anyway, it's going to look fairly sparse to start with, but it'll only get better with time.  I will keep them 100% unupped and rareless, so that any player who has played more than a few days should be able to construct the deck.  If the new player has a few upped cards, they can certainly substitute them in to improve it, as they are able.

edit: I'll be doing this without the oracle pet as well, because it's a random factor that cannot be controlled, and sometimes you don't get any pet at all.  If you want to use your pet, feel free, and in fact, I would actually encourage it to increase your win rate, but I won't do it, just so nobody can say it was the pet and not the deck that won.

Offline dragonsdemesneTopic starter

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108415#msg1108415
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 01:08:30 am »

Offline dragonsdemesneTopic starter

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108416#msg1108416
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 01:08:37 am »
AKEBONO (*countered*) (Nymph's tears liquid antimatter) 11-1
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50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 8pp


CHAOS LORD (fractal hope) 0-1, NT/gravity (0-1), dim/BH rainbow 0-1, lucidejahope/blessed dune 2-2, lucidejahope/blessed dune with deflag, 1-0
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5la 5la 5lk 5lk 5lk 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 622 622 622 622 622 622 8ps

Game 1: LOSS.  I thought I was being really smart here.  Chaos Lord has 12 ray of lights, so I could just fractal them and get upped RoLs in an unupped deck.  Well, turns out chaos lord didn't draw any RoLs for awhile, and when he finally did, he immediately mutated them all, so there were never any of them out to actually fractal.  Very, very bad idea here.  Do not try, ever.

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55k 55k 55k 55k 576 576 576 576 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 8pl

Game 2: LOSS.  This was an interesting idea that majofa had in his thread.  It was just a little bit too slow setting up in my game, though.  I got Chaos Lord down to 103, but he had too many creatures and mutants out, and I wasn't outhealing them with the amber nymphs.  I think this will get some wins, but it's not a counter.  It's certainly better than my first attempt.

Game 3: LOSS.  I had some rotten RNG in this one.  AI got a maxwell's with chaos power and unstoppable, as well as a psion mutant with destroy.  Not good, not good at all... quantum pillars also decided to provide a distinct lack of aether, and I never got any of the pendulums, so even before the destroy mutant came out, I only managed to get one of the dims out.  With modifications and slightly less ugly RNG, this might have a chance.  Some sort of creature removal, maybe reverse times or lightning bolts.  (since RT can mess with mutants pretty good)  The trouble with those is that they stress the quanta that is already most under use.  Rain of Fire could also be a good choice, and by switching steam machines to forest spirits, there wouldn't be as much demand on fire quanta, allowing the rains to be played.  That would help get rid of druids and stray RoLs.  Perhaps some combination of the above ideas?  I could probably also remove some of the mindgates; I figured they'd help with quanta issues and giving the deck more damage output, but I didn't have enough aether quanta to ever play one.  It might be wise to swap some pillars for more aether pends, since I never drew any pendulums, but got about 7 pillars.

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lk 5lk 5lk 5lk 5rg 5rg 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rt 5rt 5rt 5t2 5t2 8ps

Game 4: WIN.  I had a pretty good draw with this, getting a blessed dune on about turn 4, and a hope soon after with 4 luci deja vu copies out, and Chaos Lord didn't get any mutants bigger than my 4 strength hope until it was too late.  Healing from extra luciferins kept me alive, as did the sundials.  (those not exploded, anyway)  I'm not sure how well the deck will fare with more testing, but at least it -can- win.  It might not actually need the time pillars/pends, either, but further testing will decide that.  Also note that chaos lord mutated my blessed dune right away.  Don't play dune without blessing; I'm not sure if it will mutate an unblessed dune, but don't put yourself in a position to find out.  Also, note that you can use dune mutant abilities with your nova quanta, so if you get a good one, by all means, use it!  (novas mostly intended for luciferins, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth!)  It might be worth using reverse time or freeze or basilisk blood or those sorts of things for particularly ugly mutants, but I didn't need them this time.

Game 5: LOSS.  Two quick explosions on two sundials and I was done for.  Turns out the time pillars/pends would have been vital to my success; I didn't have the time quanta to copy deja vus, and thus not enough light quanta via luciferin to get a hope out in time.  Looking at Chaos Lord's deck, there are only two explosions in it, so this was an anomaly (steal is fairly ineffective vs sundial, denying only my extra draw) but it was still an extremely quick loss.  Even if this turns out to be a counterdeck to chaos lord, his had was one of those hands that dooms even a counter.  Perhaps with slight modifications this can be made to work... however, none of the modifications I suggested in the game 4 description would have assisted me whatsoever, especially as I probably would have -removed- time quanta to make them, which I both did not draw this game and desperately needed.

Game 6: WIN.  Much closer than I would have liked, but I got the win, which is what counts.  Amethyst Dragon was partially hitting through my hope, and once a dissipation shield came down, I was only hurting chaos lord via neurotoxin that I'd already hit him with.  It would be an instant loss if that shield were played before any neurotoxin had been accumulated.  Perhaps an explosion or two powered by the novas might be a good addition to counter that scenario?

Game 7: LOSS.  Been awhile since I had this matchup, and I forgot about dissipation field; I got completely hosed by it.  If I replaced 2-3 blessings with momentum, or used deflag, this could be bypassed.

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 5f6 5f6 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lj 5lk 5lk 5lk 5lk 5rg 5rg 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rt 5rt 5rt 5t2 5t2 8ps
Game 8: WIN.  Same lucidejahope/dune thing, but with +2 deflags for dissipation.  Easy win, but chaos lord never played a dissipation field.  I had one deflag in hand but only two fire quanta.  Luciferins had taken the third, so late game, novas should be saved whenever possible to ensure at least 3 fire quanta is available for one deflag, as due to luciferins you probably won't get to play the second deflag ever.  (but it should be included for more draw chances) 





DARK MATTER 0-1 (monoaether), (rainbow control) 0-3, light/aether 0-1
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61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 8pu

Game 1: LOSS.  I went with a slightly modded monoaether deck, for a few reasons.  6x lightning is invaluable against nymphs and chargers; nymphs will ruin your quanta, while chargers will bypass dimshields.  Parallel universe is cheaper than phase dragon, but can get you a 7 or even 8 attack creature from his field, and unless he blesses an otyugh (and with only one blessing this is unlikely) he still won't eat them.  Unfortunately, he -will- gravity pull anything you PU, and he Gpulled both of the blessed chargers I got with parallel universe.  (which, incidentally, meant I had to wait until I got two lightning to kill it, which took way too long)  I also suffered from an early Titan.  I might try the deck again later with phase dragons and/or immortals instead of parallel universes, to prevent Gpulls killing them, but I don't think it's going to work very often.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vn 4vn 55p 55p 5if 5if 5ii 5ii 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5rl 5rl 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 621 621 622 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 8pq
Game 2: LOSS.  I think this could have done a lot better, but I got screwed because of my quantum pillars.  I had a gravity shield and 2 sundials in hand, but my pillars produced 1 time quanta and 2 gravity all game.  I'd definitely try it again, possibly with small modifications.  I think the basic idea is sound, just possibly too slow.

Game 3: LOSS.  The black hole chain never let up.  I couldn't even get out a sundial, much less a sanctuary.

Game 4: LOSS.  Gave this one more try.  Two black holes hit me, then I managed a sanctuary a few turns later, but by then a blessed charger and an archangel were killing me.  I had a lightning, but it wasn't enough to kill the blessed charger, and I never got 5 gravity quanta for the shield to block the archangel and the armagio that were also hitting me.  He got a momentum near the end for the angel, anyway.  I will not try this deck again.  It just needs to do too much too fast, and it can't possibly get everything it needs in time.  All the counters are there, but the time and quanta needed to set it up isn't.  Of the 3 losses with this deck, this was the first that actually had an average RNG, and it still wasn't enough.

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5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 622 622 622 8pu
Game 5: LOSS.  Had a 6 pillar 1 fractal draw.  DM had a 6 tower draw too.  Ended up dying to archangels before I could fractal, and that was with DM getting only 1 charger all game.

ideas to try:
-sanc/dimshield/lightning/fractal (modded from some ideas in the Dark Matter thread, fractal his archangel)
ideas NOT to try:
-quint/mindflayer dim/phase dragon: tried this, even with lobo he spams momentum creatures too fast, and puts momentum on creatures after you lobo them, plus he's still got titan, and quanta demands on the deck are ugly


DECAY (CCYB mod) 6-2
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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 592 592 5c4 5c4 5f6 5f6 5ii 5ii 5ii 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5rl 5rl 5rl 621 621 621 8pq


Game 1: WIN.  I took some inspiration from majofa's thread on this one, but I modified it somewhat, and I feel it's better in this version; mine is also rareless, as his version had pulverizer.  I got an early sanc with EA and lots of pillars, but I never got a shield and my hourglasses were stolen, so I was taking a bunch of damage, despite the sancs I had gotten.  I ended up with a quinted steam machine with 30-odd attack that went the distance, though.  (never got a deflag for the dusk, either)

Game 2: LOSS.  2 pillar start vs perfect decay draw; he got a couple quick pests and eclipse, and then stole one of my pillars.  I couldn't even get a sanc out (which I had in my opening hand) until I was down to about 50hp.  I couldn't get an emerald shield out ever (which was also in my opening hand).  Same for my deflag.  I drew everything I needed, except pillars :p  Given the number of them in the deck, though, I think that was an anomaly, and I'd probably use this deck again.

Game 3: WIN.  Got a PAed sanc out early, and never looked back, though I had extra sancs so I didn't even need the PA.  Extremely easy win.  I deflagged Eclipse when it showed up, and sanc healed the lobo damage while my quinted steam machine did the heavy hitting.

Game 4: WIN.  Lots of early pillars and an early sanc.  Also, all three steam machines in the top ten cards, but no quints.  I throw one steamie out there and it immediately dies.  (this was a mistake;I really have no idea why I did this)  I draw like crazy with the hourglasses, but the first quint I found was 8 cards from the bottom, after which I immediately stop using my hourglasses.  The next quint was at 6 cards from the bottom.  I grow the steamies like mad, and manage a kill with exactly zero cards left in my deck.

Game 5: WIN.  This barely counts, though.  Decay did not find his first pest until I had 14 cards left in my deck.  By then, I had five sancs and an emerald shield.  However, what I didn't get until that same turn was my first steam machine.  The first one came at 14 cards left in my deck, the second one came at 6 cards left.  The third one was drawn on the turn I won.

Game 6: LOSS.  1 pillar start spelled trouble right away.  No emerald shield until very late was also bad; I took too much damage to recover.
Game 7: WIN.  Easy game.  Had 4 pillars, EA, sanc, steamie, and quint in my first hand.
Game 8: WIN.  Easy game, everything went smoothly.

DESTINY (monoaether) 11-3
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Monoaether seemed a good choice due to Destiny's lack of PC, as well as all of the CC being useless.  Looking at majofa's strategy thread, he did exactly the same thing.

Game 1) WIN due to a lucky topdeck of dimshield the turn I would have died otherwise.  However, Destiny also had amazing hatch luck with fate eggs, getting a phase dragon and two seraphs, so I had to start the dim chain very early.  Definitely has potential, though.

Game 2) WIN This game took 24 turns, because four of the phase dragons were undrawn in the last six cards.  However, the fate egg hatches weren't quite so ridiculous (gold/life nymph, gargoyle) so I could wait longer before playing dims, and I had lots of dims.  I only needed 4, and had the other two in hand; with six cards left in deck, I could've chained until I decked out if needed.  (and I almost did, with 4/6 dragons in the last two cards)  Basically, it looks like monoaether can only lose if you bottomdeck all your dims or you bottomdeck 5/6 dragons, since two dragons was just barely enough.  You could lose to a destroy/steal mutate, but Destiny doesn't ever seem to mutate anything.  Maybe if he got really bad fate egg hatches, he'd mutate them.

Game 3) WIN.  Quite easy victory.  Lots of early dimshields, had to wait a bit to get my first dragon, and then plow through two hatched armagios, but they only served to delay the inevitable.  A very late game hatch into elite charger would have been deadly had it been a couple turns earlier, but I had 31hp and enough damage out to win before it killed me.  Fortunately I had started the dimshield chain at 31hp, despite being able to survive one more turn without it (assuming no lucky mutate/topdeck shenanigans) simply because I had several dims in hand already, and enough in the deck to chain them until I decked out, assuming I drew them.  Had I not done so, that charger hatch would have killed me just before I won.

Game 4: WIN.  Only a 2 pillar start, but pretty easy win anyway.  I suspect I can probably call this a hard counter, though it will lose occasionally to fate egg hatches such as elite charger.

Game 5: WIN.  Easy win.
Game 6: WIN.  Another easy win.  After drawing the second dimshield, I knew I'd won, barring a destroy/steal mutant.
Game 7: WIN.  Straightforward game, easy win.
Game 8: WIN.  Easy win again.
Game 9: LOSS.  I had a decent hand and draws.  Unfortunately, Destiny got some extremely good RNG.  A turn 2 fate egg hatch into dune scorpion with chaos power and slapping a neuro on me was painfully unexpected.  A later fate egg hatched into physalia.  Thus, despite having an unbroken dimshield chain and keeping unneeded pillars in hand, I was 1 turn away from winning due to the poison buildup.  If I had somehow known a dune hatch would occur, I could have, in hindsight, won by starting the dimshield chain beforehand, but at 100hp and facing nothing but an unhatched egg, I didn't see the need.  If that was a play mistake, so be it, but I doubt most people would have played dimshield that turn, in order to save the dims for later when more damage was on the table and thus make better use of them.
Game 10: WIN.  Easy game.
Game 11: WIN.  Easy game.
Game 12: LOSS.  Only had 1 dimshield all game.  Was still 1 turn away from a win.
Game 13: LOSS.  1 dimshield all game, I was facing two dragons and a golden nymph on turn 3 from fate eggs.
Game 14: WIN.  Easy game.

DIVINE GLORY (*countered*) 10-1 (permanentless deja vu/photon lucihope)
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Once you get a hope shield of 8, you've pretty much guaranteed your win... unless you deckout.  This can happen either due to bad luck with dragon draws (so that he will miracle before you're ready) or because you screw up.  To give you an idea of how your last turn will ideally look like, this is the screenshot I had at the end.  As you can see, I kept all my dragons in hand until I was ready to make the kill, to avoid a miracle, and if you look at my deck size, you can see that would have ruined me.  (a human would've miracled early just to avoid this exact situation, but don't feel bad about abusing AI flaws to win vs FGs :p)  I was close to having a loss due to bad draw, as you can see I bottomdecked a lot of the dragons (2 of them are still in the last 4 cards) but it worked out in the end.  Also, don't forget to spam any luciferins you have at the end just for the extra few coins; with luck, you might even get an EM this way, although I doubt it, unless one side or the other had exceptionally good/bad RNG, but it is possible.  Also note that DG will have a hand clogged with explosions, because you have no legal targets for them.  Don't add any permanents to this deck for that reason, unless it's a morning star/glory in place of a dragon.  Light nymphs can give you an increased chance of EM if you have them, in place of a dragon, but be careful that your lowered damage output doesn't mess you up when you have to make the pre-miracle kill.

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Note that you can very easily win with adrenastaves + silence off the mark, as long as you've got a bunch of unupped druid staffs and upgraded animate weapons, and RoL/hope will completely wreck him as well, a deck many new players have started with.  Upgraded adrenastaves (except the staff) has gone 15-2 for me, and the unupped version should be only a turn or two slower, due to having to wait an extra turn or two for the quanta.  If you have either of those decks, I recommend those, but as I assume you have 0 ups/rares, go with the above deck otherwise, unless I find something better.



DREAM CATCHER 1-4 (rainbow black hole/blessed dunes), 4-6 (60 card rainbow black hole/dunes)
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Game 1: LOSS.  A variant of my upped counter, but it didn't work as well.  I didn't get a blessing for a long time, and despite losing the game with 3 cards left, never got the emerald shield.  My CC kept his creatures down for a long time, but without any damage of my own, I couldn't do much.  I ended up losing with him at 110 hp and 22 poison, with 3 cards left in my deck.

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Game 2: WIN.  Added +1 emerald shield to the previous list to make it a 31 card deck.  This was the result... lol
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I got the last black hole just in time to heal myself, about 3 cards from the bottom.  I'd been keeping some CC in hand because the creatures were only doing 1 damage to me, and I thought I might need them to finish him at the end before decking out, but he played enough cards to get poisoned so that it wasn't necessary.  I'd have won several turns sooner, but I couldn't find a dune scorpion for a long time, and then after the first one was immediately killed, I couldn't get 3 time quanta for the second one for a really long time, and I never even got the 3rd scorpion out.  There was one turn that Dreamcatcher topdecked both black holes at the same time, and I lost a lot of quanta and he healed a lot of HP, and I thought I was going to deck out at that point.  The first quicksand hit the turn before that, and of course this all happened after I was at 2 time quanta for several turns.  The pandes didn't seem very reliable at all this game; I don't think they actually killed anything or did anything useful other than reverse time.  There wasn't enough quanta for pande's fire/ice/drain bolts to kill any of the 4hp stuff.  I think next time I will trade out the pandes for +1 black hole and something else, either the 6th black hole or another emerald shield or another pillar.  A single quint might help as well for the scorpions to keep them from dying immediately, so you can build more poison up, in which case I'd probably also go with -1 or -2 lightning and then +1 or +2 shockwave.

Game 3: LOSS.  Dreamcatcher had a bad hand with no supernovas for the first 10 turns or so, but a discord, lots of micros, and lots of BEs.  My black holes were meaningless, and discord was evil, taking away all the quanta I needed, as I needed it.  One very late supernova bought me a few turns as I black holed some hp, but it wasn't anywhere near enough; the incredibly slow blessed scorpion (due to discord and 1 pillar draw) and the lack of any healing due to no supernovas doomed me.

Game 4: LOSS.  1 pillar start, end of story.  I couldn't ever get 4 gravity quanta for a black hole to heal, and I could barely get enough quanta to throw off one pande and a lightning, both extremely late.  I might try -1 blessing -1 dune +2 pillar next time, or else just look for a new deck.

Game 5: LOSS.  -1 blessing -1 dune +2 quantum pillars.  I got a good pillar start, but they were quicksanded.  Then I got hit with discord, both black holes, and the second quicksand.  It took me a very long time to get a blessed dune out.  (~10 cards left in my deck)  For some reason, dreamcatcher wasn't playing very many cards after that, and was only single drawing.  (AI upgrade? or stuck with unplayable stuff somehow?  But. other than redundant discords, everything in his deck was playable at that point)  I even held back my black holes, just hoping he'd do something to poison himself.  I ended up decking out with him at like 100hp.  I might try a larger version of this deck at some point.  This one's decking out too often.

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Game 6: WIN.  Fattened the deck with basically more of the same.  An easy win and an EM; however, this game doesn't really count, because Dream Catcher got a failed mulligan and had no towers for the first five turns, so I got a pretty good head start.  I'll try it again for sure, though, possibly with some hourglasses to speed things up.

Game 7: LOSS.  The good news was that I had enough pillars to survive two quick black holes and a somewhat slower earthquake.  The bad news was that I had enough pillars after that to still be flooded and lack on CC, especially the pandemoniums, none of which were in the top half of the deck.  None of the dunes were in the top half, either.

Game 8: WIN.  Early BE wrecked a few of my pillars, but fortunately I had just enough to get through.  Exactly enough CC to handle all the major threats came by, and lots of black holes, and despite RNG completely trolling my time quanta until I could finally get a dune scorpion out, and then doing the same to light (6 pillars no light gain for 3 turns in a row, and discord didn't move my light at all) I managed to get through it.  It might be a good idea to use two more pandemoniums and cut something else (but NOT pillars) for them, but I'm not sure what.

Game 9: LOSS.  Got 2 CC cards in the top 22 cards of the deck, so I died.
Game 10: LOSS. 1 black hole in the first 28 cards meant I got less healing than normal.  Everything else worked out fairly well, although I did get hit with an early quicksand which hurt, and a late game black hole gave dream catcher a bunch of hp just in the nick of time, although it merely meant I lost by 2 turns instead of 1 turn.
Game 11: LOSS.  This was a disaster of epic proportions.  Could not get anything out, despite tons of quanta, due to crap generation and no black holes for healing.
Game 12: WIN.  Pretty typical game.
Game 13: WIN.  Easy game, was in no danger whatsoever.  Won with EM.
Game 14: LOSS.  He had a lot of denial early, powered by t1 and t2 supernovas.
Game 15: LOSS.  Had a ZERO pillar draw, and didn't draw a pillar until my second last turn.  Funny enough, Dream Catcher ALSO had a pillarless draw, but had supernovas, and got out lots of weenies, including a pest.

ideas to try:

-lucihope (fractal photon, luci, dragon fractal for damage in case of quinted purple nymph, or just to win faster, can use lightnings for cc on BE or nymph or physalia)
-FFQ/hope (no bonds due to BE, but can use shockwaves, hope, maybe heals, and don't have to use luciferin; would also be more resistant to quicksand due to split quanta sources from pillar/pend/flies, even dragonflies perhaps)

ELIDNIS 0-1 (rainbow dimshield stall) 7-3 (improved rainbow dimshield stall)
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Game 1: Loss.  I took one of majofa's ideas but I modded it somewhat.  I added +3 gravity shield, +3 quantum pillar, and +2 earthquake.  Gravity shield should be obvious; it's almost like having more dimshields, because they block everything except pufferfish, ulitharid, and baby spectres.  The earthquakes were for the early game; if you can disrupt either his aether or his water quanta, he's slowed down quite a bit.  I ran into a threefold problem, however.  1) I started with only two pillars.  2) I didn't get an early earthquake.  Neither of these proved fatal, however; my undoing was caused by 3) forgetting to play a gravity shield because I didn't notice dimshield was at 0 turns remaining.  I probably would have won if I'd been paying attention.  I think that taking out the earthquakes is probably a good plan; sundials might do well in their place.  Also, I might go with -1 hourglass, but that could be simply because my hand was clogged due to only having 2 pillars in the top 16 cards, and all the hourglasses.  I'll be using a similar deck again next time.

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Game 2: WIN.  I took out the earthquakes and one of the hourglasses, and added another purify and two sundials.  I won fairly easily, despite never getting an hourglass all game, and never getting a gravity shield until the turn I won.  I got an early quinted BE steam machine out, and started by destroying water towers, rather than the bonds/staff that were in play, trying to slow down water production.  By the time the damage from his creatures started getting serious, I had a sundial and a couple dimshields, and I drew a couple more dimshields, and won with 1 still in hand.  I got both the other steamies and quinted the first one right away, and the second one when I could; due to the early destroyed water towers, and the fact that any leftover water quanta went to the spectre growth, Elidnis was unable to play congeal and never managed to get an ulitharid out all game.  (although had Elidnis drawn one in the first few turns, he could have played it, and he did in fact freeze my first steam machine, but I BE+quinted it right after :p  I'm fairly satisfied with how the game played out, and while a better counter might be possible, this one should have a half-decent win rate at least, possibly even enough to be classed as a 'counter', although I don't think it's going to be quite THAT good, at least in this version.  You can definitely win games with it, though)

Game 3: WIN.  This game was epic.  Both my butterfly effects were in the last 5 cards, so even though I had a huge quinted steam machine early, it wasn't actually getting past the bonds until very late.  The 5th and 4th last cards were BEs, and any later on either one of those and I'd have lost.  I managed to topdeck a dimshield the turn I would have lost, and when Elidnis topdecked a heal, I ended up winning by exact damage with 0 cards left in my deck.  Fortunately, I had realized when I had about 9-10 cards left in deck that I was drawing too much with hourglasses, so I stopped using them.  As it turned out, I stopped on EXACTLY the right turn.  Any sooner, and I wouldn't have picked up the dimshield in time.  Any later, and I'd have decked out.

Game 4: WIN.  Easy win.  Lots of sundials and dims to stall, and I got the steamies, BE, and quints fairly quickly.  Oddly, Elidnis played ZERO feral bonds all game... (but BE steamie would have wrecked them anyway)  I have absolutely NO idea what was clogging his hand, unless it was all the aether cards and congeals, because he had tons of quanta.  Got an EM thanks to purifies.

Game 5: LOSS.  0 sundials, 0 hourglasses, and 1 dimshield drawn in the top half of the deck.  I had three gravity shields, but elidnis had several creatures to get around those.  I did have most of the pillars drawn, though :p

Game 6: LOSS.  My stall elements were perfect, but all the quints were bottomdecked, so it took too long to get my steamies going.  I needed one more turn to kill Elidnis, but it was not to be, and I couldn't have played it any better.  The only possibility would have been to risk committing a steam machine early and hope that it wouldn't be loboed by a topdecked ulitharid or just congealed forever.

Game 7: WIN.  Took awhile for quantum pillars to make aether for the first dimshield, but once they did, I never took another point of damage for the rest of the game.  Stopped drawing with hourglasses once I had everything I needed; you have to be careful not to deck yourself out with this deck.

Game 8: WIN.  Pretty much the ideal game for this deck; no problems at all.  Straightforward win.
Game 9: WIN.  Due to late steam machines, my damage was slow, and I had to be very careful with my hourglasses.  I ended up winning with 0 cards left in deck due to careful timing.
Game 10: LOSS.  Got 2 dims and no gravity shields or sundials in the top half of the deck, so eventually I just died.
Game 11: WIN.  Won with exactly zero cards left in deck.

ETERNAL PHOENIX (thunderstorm vulture) 6-3
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Game 1: WIN.  I just decided to run my upped counter totally unupped.  I won, despite the fact I had only a 2 pillar draw, no thunderstorms for the first several turns, and made an extremely large play mistake on one turn, though eternal phoenix did take awhile to get a fractal.  (I had 3x thunderstorms in hand by then and tried to triple thunderstorm some ash to get my vultures even bigger, but I didn't actually count my air quanta first... so I wasted a thunderstorm)

Game 2: LOSS.  1 pillar draw, no thunderstorms to start.  Topdecked a pillar, which helped, and EP had no early fractal, but with only two thunderstorm in 20 cards, even his dreadful draw wasn't enough to help me win with mine.  Four bone walls stalled for awhile, but it wasn't enough.  I was actually 1 turn from the win in the end; a thunderstorm at any time was all I needed.

Game 3: WIN.  Despite a slight misplay (played thunderstorm before bone yard for some asinine reason) I still won quite easily.  My mistake just added +1 TTW to the final result. 

Game 4: WIN.  I had a slightly weak draw (no bone walls for the first few turns) but eternal phoenix had a low quanta start and never got a fractal all game (13 ttw) so I had no problems at all.  He still had about nine phoenixes at the end, though :p  (and 36 aether quanta)

Game 5: WIN.  I was slightly late with my damage, but EP was slightly late with a fractal, and when he did use it, he fractaled ash, buying me another turn, which I didn't actually need.

Game 6: LOSS.  Low quanta draw and no thunderstorms until it was too late doomed me.
Game 7: LOSS.  1 pillar draw sucks.  Got a couple more right away, but never saw a bonewall all game.  Thunderstormed a couple times and rushed with vultures and skeletons, and got him somewhere around 80hp or so, but without a bone wall, it was too much damage.  A single bonewall at any point and I'd have almost assuredly won.  (opening hand was 1 pillar 4 vultures 1 thunderstorm 1 boneyard)
Game 8: WIN.  Pretty straightforward.
Game 9: WIN.  75x bonewall and four 30 attack vultures on the last turn says it all.

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108417#msg1108417
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2013, 01:09:05 am »
FEROX (Entropy/Titanium Shield) 8-5, (Entropy/photon/shield mono) 0-2
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Game 1: WIN.  With a slightly low quanta draw, I was pretty nervous to start, but I managed to stabilize around 30hp and started healing back my hp via antimatter, and then started killing things with maxwell's.  I also had a turn 4 shield which was very helpful; had I not had that early, I'd probably have lost.  I had to make some key decisions about whether to play antimatter, maxwell, or dragons early on due to quanta shortages, so be careful when you use this deck; in the early game, you have to make the right decisions.  (hint: don't worry about early damage; save the dragons until you've controlled the board)  Maxwell's can kill dragons/frogs, and the titanium shields block the little stuff, leaving only cockatrices that get past both of them.  I got a gnome fairly late, and I was concerned I might deck out, but once I got a gnome and slapped BE on it, I blew up all ferox's bonds and staff, and cruised to an easy win.  It was even an EM! :)  Not bad for an unupped rareless deck.  This deck might be prone to being outrushed, but once it stabilizes, it should win most of the time, unless it decks out.  Use purple nymphs if you have them.  With a few upgrades, I would use micro abominations instead of gnomes, and a shield or tower shield instead of titanium shield, so that you can make it a mono.  I suppose you could use photons and a shield even unupped.

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Game 2: LOSS.  Ferox was just a little bit too fast on this one.  I'm hermesnot sure whether this was smarter than the first version or not; on the one hand, titanium shield > shield, but on the other, entropy mark > earth mark.  As it turned out, in this particular game, because I had a photon and a shield in the first hand, I'd probably have been better off with the earth version.  I ended up having to spend antimatters on cockatrices because he got so many frogs and cockatrices, and then by the time the dragons came out, the maxwell's I'd been picking frogs off with wasn't enough.  I -almost- managed to stabilize my damage, but there were just too many dragons.  One turn he topdecked two of them, and the next he topdecked a third to finish me off; without that one, I might've stabilized in time.

Game 3: LOSS.  I had 2 antimatters, lots of quanta, and 2 maxwell's early.  The problem?  All of the creatures Ferox played were not killable by maxwell's.  I faced down a whole bunch of cockatrices and 1/1s with adrenaline, and didn't get the shield.  The loss was extremely quick.  Had one or two of the cockatrices been dragons, I'd ironically have done better :p

Game 4: WIN.  I used the earth mark version above again, and had no problems at all, despite the fact that the earth mark means I have -less- entropy quanta to do everything.  I AMed the first dragon, which kept me healing from everything else, while demons killed all the frogs.  I even ended up with EM.  Either I'm having godawful RNG with the photon version or very good RNG with the titanium version.

Game 5: LOSS.  Used the titanium shield version.  Ferox won the toss and played his entire hand first turn.  I had a 2 pillar start.  I -almost- stabilized in time, but he topdecked a third jade dragon after I'd maxwelled two away.  With one more pillar or less incredible luck from Ferox and I'd have had an easy win; I had two AM in hand I couldn't play, and I had a titanium shield out after turn 4.  Unfortunately, I was at 15hp facing two cockatrice and a bunch of stuff the shield was blocking; ordinarily, with 2/4 dragons out of the way already thanks to maxwell, I'd have been okay, and I was ready to AM a cockatrice the next turn, but Ferox topdecked that third dragon... I think he only has four, too.  RNG simply hates me... :p  In any event, the deck seems to have potential, and with 50% quanta, the 2 pillar start was unquestionably an anomaly.

Game 6: LOSS.  7 pillar starting hand, and 10/14 in the first 7 turns.  I still ALMOST made it, because the other 4 cards were AMx2, titanium shield, and a gnome.  AM on the two biggest creatures while shield reduced the rest of the damage.  Unfortunately, I kept getting pillars and pillars and pillars, then a dragon and a BE... but no more AMs or any maxwells for CC.  I topdecked a maxwells the turn before I died.  Stupid RNG.

Game 7: LOSS.  (earth version)  6 pillar 1 dragon start.  Got no shields or antimatters all game.  A late maxwell helped me a bit, but it was too little too late.  I drew 2 maxwells, 2 dragons, and the rest was all pillars.

Game 8: WIN.  (earth version)  Pretty typical game on both sides.  I was rather late getting dragons, so the damage took awhile, but I had the game under control thanks to a couple early antimatters.  Demons came along a bit late as well, but I was able to hold off until then between my shield and the antimatters I'd gotten so far.  Ferox didn't get a really fast draw like he sometimes does, but he didn't get a terrible one, either.

Game 9: LOSS (earth version)  1 antimatter was all the CC I drew.  No demons, no other antimatters, no shields.
Game 10: WIN (earth version)  Ferox got a turn 1 epicock (6x tower, cock, epi), but I got a turn 2 antimatter off on it :p  Maxwell's came out right after that and nuked all the frogs and dragons while that cockatrice kept me healed.  I coudn't find a gnome to put BE on, so I ended up AMing my own dragon, casting BE on it, and AMing it again that turn, and using the dragon to destroy the bonds.  I won the game with 12 cards left in my deck, having never drawn any of the earth cards.

Game 10: LOSS (earth version)  Never got any antimatters or titanium shields all game.
Game 12: WIN (dunno where game 11 went, but the record shows 12)  (earth version) Basically got a perfect draw.  Given how important the shield was, I think perhaps room for another titanium shield should be found.
Game 13: WIN (earth version) Pretty straightforward, was never in any danger.
Game 14: WIN (earth version) Ferox got a huge early game, but I played antimatter on the dragon, got the shield out, and he did very little for a long time after that, and I managed to recover nicely.
Game 15: WIN (earth version) Both sides had a slow start, but I won.

FIRE QUEEN 3-6 (Vulture RoF OTK) (bad RNG loss, good RNG WIN, bad RNG loss) (0-1 modded vulture RoF OTK) 0-1 another modded vulture otk
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Game 1: Loss.  I took majofa's idea and replaced the hourglasses and shockwaves and one pillar with sundials.  The reasoning was that shockwaves do very little for the deck, and that without a time mark and upped hourglasses, the dials will probably draw almost as much over the course of the game, plus give you more stall.  Unfortunately, while I got all my stall elements out, my fractal was somewhere in the last six cards, and Fire Queen OTKed me with all six of her fire lances.  (well, not all in the same turn, but she got all 6 lances and used them all on me over the course of the game)  One less lance, or an earlier fractal, and I'd have been fine.  Using sundials instead of shockwaves was definitely the right call, but it might be better to not replace the hourglasses for the late game to help avoid this situation.  Even so, if it weren't for topdecking all the lances, I'd have had an easy win.  I think this deck should work most of the time.  I'll definitely try it again next time, possibly with -2 dial +2 hourglass or something like that.

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Game 2: Win.  I went with -1 sundial -1 dimshield +2 hourglass to get through the deck faster.  Fire Queen had an extremely slow start, so I had absolutely no problems at all winning.  The lances were scary, though; after putting up my first dim around 60hp, I ended up winning with about 20hp due to lances at my face.  My opening hand was 5 quantum pillar, 1 sundial 1 dimshield against an early EE, but fire queen played no creatures at all for the first 6 or 7 turns, so I had pretty much free reign to do whatever I wanted.  Due to the lances being a potential problem (indeed, they are basically the only way this deck can lose) I think I'd recommend dropping a quantum pillar and maybe one other card for something like heal or sanctuary. 

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Game 3: LOSS.  -1 pillar, +1 heal.  I had a great hand and good draws.  Lots of dims/dials, lots of quanta, and fire queen started off pretty slowly.  I had everything to OTK rather quickly, except for the fractal.  I kept drawing, and drawing, and drawing, and drawing... and guess where the fractal was?  <sigh>...  Drew my last card, got the fractal :p  Played vulture, fractal, rain of fire, sky blitz.  I did 192 damage, and then decked out next turn.

The shockwaves that majofa had in his version of this deck would've given me the game, but 99% of the time they would've been dead cards.  Not this time... :p  It might well be worth putting one shockwave back in instead of the heal I swapped a pillar for this time, just to get that extra oomph over the finish line for the next time this happens.  Two I think is probably overkill, though.  I had pretty much the worst case scenario possible for number of fireflies on the board (lots of flying EEs out) and was still only 8 damage shy.  One more death was all I needed.

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Game 4: WIN.  Added +1 shockwave to the previous deck, for a 31 card deck, as well as to help prevent the problem of last game.  I got a fairly slow start, but fire queen got an even slower one, so even though my bottom three cards were dimshield dimshield and #31 was fractal, I still won.  I didn't need the shockwave.

Game 5: LOSS.  Had a pretty good start, but then I couldn't find my dimshields in time.  The last 4 cards had 2 dimshields and part of my combo; I ended up getting firelanced and EEed to death.

Game 6: WIN.  Couldn't find the hourglasses or the sky blitz, and after a nasty scare where I was almost OTKed by firelances, I decided to try and do a two turn kill by playing vulture fractal rof and going with ~150 damage on the board, because if I didn't, and fire queen topdecked another lance, I was screwed.  It worked out in the end.

Game 7: LOSS.  Firelanced to death because rain of fire was in the bottom 3 cards.

Game 8: LOSS.  I'm starting to get -really- pissed off with this deck.  1 dimshield all game with 11 cards to go, and ended up losing with 3 sundials in hand because I didn't have any time quanta to play them.  Next time I'm going to try and design something new, because this clearly isn't working.

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Game 9: LOSS.  Modded the deck slightly to try and increase my chances.  Removed all dimshields, went up to 6 dials, went to mark of time and more hourglasses to try and keep the sundial chain going all game, and then with the shield slot free, added reflective shields to prevent the firelance OTKs that seem to happen all too frequently while trying to complete the combo.  Everything went perfectly according to plan, until I got down to 1 card left in my deck, and discovered that I did not have enough death quanta to play all the vultures I had in hand, and fire queen hadn't filled his field up with fireflies yet because there hadn't been as many turns, so I couldn't make the kill.  (I'd also been rather iffy on air quanta, having only 3 air for several turns in a row, and then finally getting enough air for sky blitz at the last second)

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Game 10: LOSS.  I had everything I needed... except air quanta to sky blitz.  Fahrenheit got past my dials.

GEMINI 9-2 (liquid antimatter nymph's tears)
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Game 1: WIN.  I had several ideas for a deck here, from dimshields to wings to otyughs to liquid antimatter, and when I saw majofa had done liquid antimatter, I figured that would be a good place to start.  Based on how things played out, I think the only way you can lose is if you bottomdeck all the nymph's tears.  I got a weak draw with 4/5 of the obsidian pillars early (and so less entropy quanta) but I still had a nymph's tears early, and one purple nymph dominated the game.  Just remember not to use liquid shadow too early on AMed spiders; you want to keep some healing you, particularly at the beginning.  Keep steals for electrocutors.  I didn't have to steal an electrocutor that game, so I stole a dimshield on the last turn when he had 12hp and I had 4 nymphs out.  I also got an EM, which should happen most of the time, I think.

Game 2: WIN.  Lots of NT, pends, and steals to start, but no obsidian pillars for awhile; an early lobo would have been tough to overcome, but Gemini didn't get one until it was far too late.  Pretty easy win; it was also an EM.

Game 3: LOSS.  Gemini wins coin toss, plays turn 1 lobotomizer.  No steals.  GG.

Game 4: WIN.  Gemini had a 1 gravity tower start, which meant that no massive dragons came out for a long time.  This resulted in me dominating the board with my nice hand, but failing to do much damage with LS spiders in the meantime, and dimshields blocked my nymphs.   I was worried I'd deck out, but finally Gemini got a 2nd gravity tower and managed to get a dragon out, which with LS helped kill him in the end.  I think I had about 4 cards left in deck, one of which was a steal.

Game 5: WIN.  Easy game; everything went according to plan.  Slightly slower due to a lack of early obsidian pillars, but the purple nymph kept everything under control.

Game 6: WIN.  Gemini's early spider rush was a bit scary, but nymph's tears came out in time for purple nymph, and it was straightforward after that.

Game 7: WIN.  Took a long time to get obsidian pillars, but gemini never got lobotomizer, so despite taking 20+ turns to win, I was in no danger.
Game 8: LOSS.  Gemini came out swinging unbelievably fast.  Four spiders and an immortal, and I just couldn't antimatter everything in time, despite having a decent hand.  Was down to like 60 by the time my purple nymph came online, and it -almost- saved me, but I ended up at 3 entropy on the last turn, and couldn't AM one more thing to buy more time.
Game 9: WIN.  Very easy.  Got an EM.
Game 10: WIN.  Spider spam early nearly got me, but purple nymphs stopped them in time.
Game 11: WIN.  Easy win.


GRAVITON (blessed otyughs) 0-1, (rainbow control with flayers) 0-1, (modded rainbow control with flayers) 0-1, (improved rainbow control with flayers) 0-1, earth NT control 0-1, improved earth NT control 0-1, blessed dunes 0-1
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 55r 55r 55r 55r 55r 55r 576 576 576 576 576 576 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 8pq

Game 1: (blessed otyughs) LOSS.  Several people at the end of the graviton strategy thread recommended this.  I found it to be too slow, although admittedly I had a 1 pillar + 1 pend draw, so it took until turn 4 to get an otyugh out.  However, I don't think it has much of a chance, so I'll be looking for something else next time.

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Game 2: (rainbow control with flayers) LOSS.  Taken from majofa's strategy thread, but added more quanta because it was really quanta light, and added gravity shields because they're really good against him.  (majofa had steals for graviton's shield, but he only has 2 in the deck so it isn't reliable)  I got 1 pillar all game, so I don't know if the deck even works.  I suspect it's probably too slow, but I might give it another try, since thais game was a joke.  -1 flayer -1 hourglass and probably -1 quint, for +3 quantum pillars, would likely be a good start.

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Game 3: (modded rainbow control with flayers) LOSS.  I had a turn 3 quinted flayer, and I loboed everything like a boss.  However, because I took the steals out, when Titan hit the field, it killed me before my flayers + quinted fire spirit could do the same.  I'd added the lightnings, but they weren't needed at all.  Next time I will drop the lightning, add the steals back, and everything should be good to go.  I'll probably get rid of the antimatter as well; it's expensive at an 8 cost, and with a gravity shield or wings out, nothing can get through to heal you anyway, unless it has momentum, and if the flayers are doing their job, then they've loboed everything.

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Game 4: LOSS.  I tried to fix the weaknesses of the game 3 deck, but I never got a steal or an hourglass, and my 2nd water quanta took forever to get, so my quinted flayer was late.  I got a wings but it was exploded.  Complete blowout; lost in like 7 turns.

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58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ij 5ij 8pp

Game 5: LOSS.  Planned on auburns to stall, dry spells to get past gravity shield (though firestorm helped there) but it was simply too slow, though much better than any of the decks I've tried so far.  I got him down to around 130.  It also went a bit slow because my first hand had 3x stone pillars and 1x water pillar, so it took awhile to get a nymph out, and the first one was hit with gravity pull.  Graviton unexpectedly helped me get past his gravity shield by firestorming my field, but I just didn't have enough quanta and auburns to keep everything at bay all the time, and when titan hit the field, I had no answer for it.

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Game 6: LOSS.  Dropped the dry spells that were originally intended to bypass gravity shield by damaging my own nymphs (graviton will do this for you with fire storm) and 2 pillars and added 4 purifies, to help counteract a titan after getting an auburn lock down.  I had the supreme misfortune to draw in this short 8 turn game all four purifies, lots of pillars, and no tears whatsoever.

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Game 7: LOSS.  I got pretty much an ideal draw against an extremely bad graviton draw, and still lost.  This has no chance.


HECATE (nymph tears rush) 0-1 (PU/AM) 1-1, PA grav shield/dragon 0-1
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Game 1: LOSS.  I made two major miscalculations when deciding upon this deck.  1) Rage elixirs do 6 damage, not 5.  2) Hecate will use liquid shadow as CC.  I also failed to draw any freezes at all.  Do not use this deck.

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Game 2: LOSS.  I'd been thinking this would be a good idea, and majofa was kind/prescient enough to provide a sample build in his threads.  Unfortunately, as it turns out, it's too slow.  I lost in 5 turns even with a 12 attack vamped doll on my side.  I did have only a 2 pend start, but I did topdeck a couple more.  The deck will probably get some wins, but it's not in the solid category of 'counter deck' that I want for this thread.

Game 3: LOSS.  I tried the PA gravity shield thing again, but loaded up with colossal dragons, since the AI won't try to kill them with rage potions.  Turns out that even with a turn 3 PAed gravity shield, I still lost terribly.  I took loads of damage from the voodoo dolls poison/raging, and an extremely early dusk/dagger meant that even with 3 early dragons out, the AI got an EM against me.

Game 4: WIN.  Tried the PU/AM deck again, and I got basically the perfect draw.  Just enough quanta, and several AMs/PUs meant that I had enough vampiric stuff to keep alive, while that and the LS/AM combo helped slowly get Hecate's hp down, despite the healing from his dagger, the poison, and the nonAMed dolls.

HERMES (voodoo universe; probably a bad idea to try this deck) 0-1, (bonebolt PU) 0-1, rainbow control 0-3, PU/reflective 0-1
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Future ideas to try: quinted otyughs with lightning, pandebonium (without arsenics since it's rare), some sort of liquid shadow/hp dragon, some sort of water control (dry spell and bolts will actually kill a lot of his stuff if done immediately), NT/dry spell rush
Ideas not to try: liquid antimatter (hermes will CC his own stuff), voodoo universe (already tried it; too slow/unreliable)
Ideas for people with enough rares: SoW/dune scorp/lightning/reverse time, SoW/quint/reflective shield, quinted squid, SPlat

Game 1: (loss with voodoo universe) This probably isn't going to work... it took too long to get my 2nd nova for a voodoo doll, and by then, I'd spent all of my basilisk bloods delaying Hermes' creatures to keep myself alive up to that point.  I had nothing left to do the voodoo universe combo.  I did a total of 30 damage with a PU on a ruby dragon that lasted one turn before dying, and one backlash hit with his ruby dragon into a gpulled doll.  I'd been thinking that since Hermes has a lot of creatures (which would run into the gpulled/BBed dolls) and a lot of CC (that he probably wouldn't use on dolls) that it might work, but it's too slow to set up.  It might get lucky once in awhile, but it's not going to be reliable.

Game 2: (loss with bonebolt) This actually wasn't too bad, but I only got Hermes down to 115hp.  The deck simply doesn't have enough damage output.  Dropping all of the poisons and adding phase dragons, dims, and a bit more aether quanta to handle that might help, although the dims would probably just get exploded, anyway.  I don't think I'll try this again, but something that packs a bit more punch along with a bit more control along this same line of thought might do the trick, if such a deck exists.

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Game 3: LOSS.  I got 1 pillar in the first 17 cards, and it got exploded on turn 2, so this hardly got a fair chance.  I'll try it again and hope RNG doesn't decide to screw me again :p

Game 4: LOSS.  No reflective shield meant that while I completely controlled the board, I ended up getting lanced to death.  Given the number of pillars in the deck, I think it might be wise to drop all the mindgates and enchant artifacts and go with more healing and two more reflective shields.  Purifies might be a reasonable addition, as they cannot be exploded.

Game 5: LOSS.  I had everything I needed fairly early.  Reflective shield, check.  Lots of quanta and CC, check.  Mindgate with EA... took a lot longer, but check.  14 cards left in deck, and on track to kill hermes with mindgated lances.  Suddenly, a fahrenheit comes up, and EA is immediately put on it (I had about 4 explosions in hand from mindgates) and I had absolutely no answer to that.  Heals had already been used, and that was that.  I'll need a different strategy for sure next time.

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5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 625 625 8pq

Game 6: LOSS.  Went with a PU/reflective shield strategy; keep the bolts away from your face, PU big stuff, and bolt it after you PU it.  I got hermes down to about 140 before dying.  Probably best to not even bother with the shields and go for more aether quanta; I'd have done better, though it still would not have been a win.  Dimshields can work, and there's the EA/dim/PU deck that majofa posted, but dims alone will probably die to explosions, and the EA/dim/PU deck I already tested and it's not good enough to be a counter.


INCARNATE (*countered*) (Fractal voodoo/dimshield retrovirus AI abuse) 9-0
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Pretty much can't lose as long as you get a couple dims.



JEZEBEL (gravity control with EA) 0-1, (EA modified grabbow) 0-1, (rainbow control with EA) 1-5, modded rainbow control with EA 0-1
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Game 1: LOSS.  2 pillar draw, didn't get EA until after cloak came up.  Bad draw vs an excellent one.  Still, I think that this unupped version of my successful upped counter will probably not work due to lack of speed.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55v 55v 590 590 590 590 590 590 592 592 592 592 5ii 5ii 5up 5up 5up 5up 61q 61q 8pm

Game 2: LOSS.  I put enchant artifact on Jezebel's quantum towers turn 1, but I never got enough quanta to steal cloaks or shields or anything at all.  I had lots of steals, though... :p  One more darkness quanta would have made a HUGE difference, or one more aether for double lightning.  (though I'm now thinking the lightnings are mostly useless except against gravity nymphs)  Also, remember to enchant your own pillars (to avoid steals) or anything you steal from Jezebel.  If you have upped towers, that would be a good thing to use.  Next time I might try a novaimmobow to get around the pillar problem.  Jezebel stole and made a light nymph out of my quantum pillar.  Reverse time might be a really good include, but I was concerned that with the graboids already using time quanta that I wouldn't be able to support those as well.  The creatures were selected for their resilience to drain life.  A shrieker takes 2 siphons to kill, if Jezebel has under 10 darkness quanta, and a graboid doesn't die at all, and steam machine has both the hp and the potential for huge growth.  Black holes were for denial/healing, a solid choice against a rainbow deck.

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Game 3: WIN. Went with a large controlbow based on the ideas I used before.  I'll definitely admit I had good RNG in this game, and based on how the play went, the deck can be optimized.  I won coin toss and with the EA in my opening hand, I blocked the quantum towers.  With the second one I got a turn or two later, I blocked the water towers, both before Jezebel could play nymph's tears out.  She got one purple nymph when she stole the one pillar I had in my opening hand, but I eventually rewound it, and when it was replayed, I managed to kill it (and a cloak at the same time) with pandemonium.  The vampire stiletto she had was not good, and the siphon lifes hitting me hurt pretty bad as well, but eventually I got a 3rd EA, so I was able to steal and EA the stiletto.  (I didn't bother stealing it earlier, because Jezebel was almost guaranteed to have a steal in hand to take it right back, and without any targets for her steals, she was drawing 1 card/turn, and I didn't want her to be able to clear her hand)  The black holes were vital for healing purposes, and they also slowed the replay of the rewound nymph by a turn.  The next version will have less graboids, and use some reflective shield (vs siphon life, to prevent OTKs to myself and increase the hand clogging), a 6th enchant artifact to increase draw odds. (it's really quite vital to have several ASAP)  Something like -4 graboid +3 reflective shield +1 enchant artifact, perhaps?  If you can get a reflective shield, and EA on all the pillars, it doesn't matter that your damage output is slow, because Jezebel can't do anything at all to hurt you besides any nymphs she might've gotten early (and they hopefully die to pande or get rewound) or the stiletto. (which hopefully gets stolen and EAed)  Jezebel also has permafrost shield, which you will probably have to steal and EA. (another reason to use more EA copies) although you can still win without stealing the permafrost, it will just be a lot slower, since the spirits will keep getting frozen.  Remember that you can use your pande to clear a cloak without killing your graboids or quinted spirits, if you need to steal something underneath it, or EA the towers.

idea for game 4 to improve deck: -4 graboid +3 reflective shield +1 enchant artifact
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Game 4: LOSS.  Used the above mod, but had trouble with a turn 2 vamp dagger and no steals for it.  I also didn't get the EAs for a few turns, so some nymphs snuck out, and by the time my RTs were drawn, cloak was up, and pandemonium was hiding.

Game 5: LOSS.  Had serious quanta screw, and had both of my pillars stolen.

Game 6: LOSS.  Had all the cards I needed, except pillars.  Next time I'll add more.
Game 7: LOSS.  Had no EA, so I couldn't stop the nymph onslaught despite a pretty decent hand with reflective shield, a quinted forest spirit, and no opposing cloak.
Game 8: LOSS.  Had almost everything I needed, but Jezebel got around the EAs I put on his towers by stealing lots of mine and playing NT on them.

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Game 9: LOSS.   I had a really bad draw.

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LIONHEART (*countered*) 8-1 (gravity shield stall)
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Steal a light tower so you can play sancs, then some time towers and an eternity.  Gravity shield should give you the win virtually every time.

MIRACLE (*countered*) 10-1 (accelerated PUgon / dimshield)
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You cannot lose unless you fail to draw dimshields.


MORTE (blue nymph tears rainbow stall) 5-3, (blue nymph tears stall with 3 aether pends) 9-2
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Game 1: WIN.  The unupped, rareless version of the upped FG counter I use.  Works pretty good; it's 7-2 in its upped form for me so far.  It might benefit from either some aether pendulums or something, though; sometimes, there isn't enough aether quanta to play dims.  I recommend miracle if you have one, just for more EMs (with a purify you can get EM) but it's not necessary.

Game 2: WIN.  Wow, this was a weird game.  My opening hand was nearly perfect; NT, dial, quint, dim, 1 air pend, 2 quantum pillars.  I topdecked a few more pillars, but I almost died because I didn't get enough aether quanta to play a dimshield until the last possible second.  Then, when that dim ran out, I only had 5 aether quanta, and couldn't replay it, so I drew with my one hourglass I'd just gotten the turn before, and topdecked a sundial.  Then, my 8+ pillars failed to produce aether quanta again; I topdeck another dial, and then the next turn my pillars fail AGAIN and I topdeck a dial AGAIN.  Then I finally get some aether quanta.  Early on, I had played my tears on the air pend, even though I didn't have the aether quanta to quint it until about turn 20, because there were no retroviruses in play and because I knew it wouldn't plague one creature; because of that, and because my 2nd NT that I played on a quantum pillar (and got another air nymph; I had no more pends at the time) I got enough gases out to win.  Oh yeah, and I almost died to poison because I couldn't find a purify in the top half of the deck, either :p  And I -still- won.  I think this deck's a pretty good anti-Morte deck, all things considered :p

Game 3: LOSS.  Extremely poor quanta production from quantum pillars combined with a terrible draw resulted in an unexpected loss.  I got 1 sundial all game, and despite having lots of pillars, I never got 6 aether all game for my dimshields; I was stuck at 2 for the first several turns, then got up to 5, and got teased by RNG for the last couple turns.

Game 4: LOSS.  Didn't get an hourglass until the last turn, and didn't get enough dials/dims to survive until then.

Game 5: WIN.  Got lots of early stall and hourglasses, and everything except the NT/quints.  All 3 NTs and both quints were in the last 9 cards. I kept drawing and drawing until I got my first NT at 8 cards left in deck (1st quint was the 9th) and I got the 2nd quint at 7 cards in and the 2nd NT at 6, and I managed to get enough gases out just in time to with with exactly 0 cards left in my deck.  I still had 4 sundials left in hand, but I'd spent the last dimshield.  I also got an EM because Morte played all his poison early and got none late game, and I purified it and he didn't draw any more poisons, whereas I drew all the purifies and healed 8hp/turn.

Game 6: WIN.  Good 4 pillar draw with lots of stall/hg drawn, against a 1 tower start by Morte.  Easy win, just slow because it took awhile to find nymph's tears.

Game 7: LOSS.  I had what I thought was an absolutely perfect draw.  4 pillars, 3 sundials, and dimshield to start.  Unfortunately, Morte had other ideas; he played three deadly poisons on turn 2, and two more after that, leaving me at 15 poison.  I start chaining sundials but can't find a purify, and I don't have long.  I didn't find one...

Game 8: WIN.  Started with only 1 pillar, which had me pretty worried, but I had I think 3 sundials to start, and Morte had a bit of a slow start, so I didn't need to play dials, and I topdecked some pillars fairly quickly.  I struggled to find aether quanta again, and despite having 7 pillars on the board, I was stuck at 5 aether quanta for several turns in a row, and only the turn before I would have lost did I finally get that 6th aether for a dimshield.  After playing a few purifies, I then struggled to find water quanta for the nymph's tears.  I finally got enough when I had 9 cards left in deck to play a quinted nymph.  I had to then save up for another tears and play an unquinted nymph in order to produce enough gas to win, as a single nymph was insufficient.  Fortunately, Morte had wasted all its retroviruses pumping its bone wall/condors.  Very strange RNG game; 1 pillar start, but topdecked lots, while Morte got a turn 1 bone wall with its quanta flood, and then my pillars were producing quanta so badly that I almost lost anyway.

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Game 9: WIN.  -3 quantum pillars, +3 aether pendulums.  Often in previous games, a lack of aether quanta has prevented dimshields from coming out in time, so I swapped a few aether pends in for qpillars, which also gets more time quanta for the hourglasses.  My opening hand had one quantum pillar and one aether pendulum, and I can absolutely guarantee that I would have had a game loss if it had been a quantum pillar instead.  I -just- managed to get 6 aether quanta on the turn I would have lost otherwise, and the dimshield stalled long enough that I was able to get everything else under control.  In addition to the invaluable extra aether quanta that it provided me, the extra time quanta also let me get the hourglass out and use it a turn or two earlier, which also made an enormous difference.  I will definitely keep the aether pendulum change for next time.

Game 10: WIN.  Aether pends MVP again.  Didn't have any in the opening hand, but drew two fairly soon thereafter, and without them, I would not have gotten the first two dimshields up in time to save me.  After those ran their course, I was fine.  I was worried when I didn't get any air pends for a really long time, but I got the first one at 10 cards left in deck, and the second one at 5 cards left in deck, plus Morte only got one bone wall, so I was able to attack through it with the first blue nymph; I had also made a golden nymph from one of my quantum pillars. (I had all 3 NT and both quints early, so I gambled hoping for an air one :p)

Game 11: WIN.  Aether pends won the game.  Even with a couple out, my dimshield chain dropped one turn, but I had a sundial ready.  A lack of water quanta meant I had to spend it on purifies, and it took forever to get a nymph's tears played even with 7 quantum pends in play, but once I did, it was quickly over.  Won with 5 cards left in deck.

Game 12: WIN.  Late dims had me worried, but two hourglasses out and ready got me my first dim when I was down to about 30hp.  Smooth sailing after that.

Game 13: LOSS.  Bottomdecked all the nymph's tears, and ended up one UG short to make the kill.  I had gone through all the dims/dials and had 1 card left in deck.  There was simply no way to win in time with all the tears buried that deep.

Game 14: WIN.  WAY too close for comfort.  Had to draw like crazy to get the cards I needed, and purifies were tough to come by, and in the end I won with 0 cards in deck, a purify at the very bottom, and just enough gases to win.

Game 15: WIN.  Pretty straightforward.
Game 16: WIN.  Easy win.
Game 17: LOSS.  Did not get enough aether quanta in time to play a dimshield, despite having a pendulum.
Game 18: WIN.  Perfect draw vs 1 tower start for Morte.
Game 19: WIN.  Easy win.

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108418#msg1108418
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2013, 01:09:13 am »
NEPTUNE (monoaether + deflags off mark) 9-2
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5f6 5f6 5f6 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61s 61s 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61v 61v 61v 61v 61v 61v 8po


Game 1: WIN.  Stolen verbatim from majofa's threads.  When chaining dims, make sure to take into account the fact that Neptune has a lot of shockwaves.  I started the chain 1 turn earlier than I thought I needed it, and this ended up winning me the game, because I took a TON of shockwaves to the face.  I never had to deflag a permafrost shield because it never showed up.

Game 2: WIN.  I had a one pillar hand, but topdecked quite a few pillars in the next several turns.  It was all I needed.  Still never had to use the deflags, although with two in hand I nearly took out his poseidon while short on aether quanta, but I never did; I probably should have, but it didn't matter.  It occurred to me while playing this game that one could ease the quanta requirement slightly by replacing one of the immortals with a short sword.  It would deal 1 less damage, but it would cost 5 less quanta, and neptune can't deal with weapons.  I'll probably do that next time, although it's a very minor improvement.

Game 3: WIN.  Deflagged the only permafrost shield he ever got.  I chained my dims really late, later than I should have, and the subsequent shockwaves brought me down to 5hp, but I won in the end without too much difficulty.  I forgot to swap an immortal for a short sword, though.

Game 4: LOSS.  Got only 2 pillars to start and all three deflags, which meant I had both a low damage output and only one dimshield.  I ended up getting shockwaved to death from behind a dimshield.  I put it up when I was at 15hp, and neptune had already spent 2 shockwaves, so I hoped I would be safe.  Three shockwaves hit me the next turn, and I lasted a few more turns, but a final shockwave took me out.

Game 5: WIN.  Got a little scary with the number of shockwaves pointed at my face after the dimshields came down, but I won with 18hp.
Game 6: WIN.  Easy win.  Faced two permafrosts but had two deflags.
Game 7: WIN.  Easy.
Game 8: LOSS.  Got 3 deflags, but Neptune had all 4 permafrosts, and was never down more than 1 turn without it.  I ended up losing by one turn.
Game 9: WIN.  Easy win.
Game 10: WIN.  Won the turn my dimshield chain would have run out.
Game 11: WIN.  Easy win despite a 2 quanta start.

OBLITERATOR 6-4 (LA with drain life)
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4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 5us 5us 5us 5us 5us 5us 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 8pj
Game 1: LOSS.  Didn't have a very good game here.  He got the shriekers out before the dragons, and I had to LS/AM them first to stay alive, and so they died before he drew the dragons.  By then, I was out of antimatters, and he was out of (unburrowed) shriekers when I got 10 darkness for drain life.  It can win games, for sure, but I'm not going to try it again; it won't have the win rate a counter should have.  The idea was suggested by ColourlessGreen, but he might've had a totally different build; I didn't ask for his exact deck, he just gave me the rough idea.

Game 2: WIN.  Absolutely owned Obliterator this time.  However, I also had very good RNG which blessed me with a lot of quanta, and Obliterator didn't get his pulverizer until late, so he couldn't deny my quanta.  He also led with dragons instead of shriekers (unlike the last time I tried this deck) so I was able to LA them without them dying to poison too soon, and then I either drained the shriekers or ignored them and let him burrow them.  The deck would possibly be improved by something like -2 drain life +2 pendulum, which I might try next time.

Game 3: WIN.  I decided not to make any changes to the deck after all.  I got a 1 pend draw and thought I was screwed.  I topdecked a couple more, and just barely managed to stabilize in time, partially due to a (if I do say so myself) well-placed liquid shadow on a shrieker so it couldn't burrow, thus letting me handle it the next turn, which might have made the difference.  The fact that I made it at all with that hand was a miracle, although admittedly obliterator didn't get a pulverizer; had he, my pendulums would have been toast, as would I.

Game 4: LOSS.  Bottomdecked 4 of the antimatters in the last 11 cards, and ended up being overwhelmed.

Game 5: WIN.  I was one turn too slow to drain or AM the first shrieker before it burrowed, but I controlled almost everything else that showed up.  I must have gotten all the drain lifes in the top half, and I think two of the antimatters.  Pretty easy win, and an EM thanks to a final drain life to the face.

Game 6: LOSS.  2 pend start and early shriekers instead of dragons screwed me, since LS/AM didn't last as long.
Game 7: LOSS.  Low quanta start, plus early pulverizer, and shriekers burrowing before I had quanta to do anything to them made for a terrible game.
Game 8: WIN.  Just barely stabilized with antimatters in time.
Game 9: WIN.  Easy win, got EM.
Game 10: WIN.  Easy win.


OCTANE (reflective shield/stoneskin) 0-1 (AM/quint reflective) 0-1, (rainbow deckout stall with reflective shield) 1-3, improved reflective deckout 2-1
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58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 594 594 594 594 594 594 595 595 595 595 595 595 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5lc 5lc 5lc 5lc 5lc 5lc 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 8pq

Game 1: LOSS.  A 1 pend start did not help at all, but the unupped deck simply does not have enough stall potential compared to the upped counter using rares.  The reflective/emerald shield idea is definitely a good start, but more control is needed

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4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 50u 50u 50u 50u 5c2 5c2 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 621 621 621 621 621 621 8pu

Game 2: LOSS.  I took this from majofa's thread, but unlike most of his other FG recommendations that are really good, this one completely sucks.  I got a turn 1 reflective shield, so gases weren't a problem, but there are too many owl's eyes for only six antimatters in the entire deck.  Only drawing 1 antimatter, and that only on my last turn, did not help matters any.  Theoretically, it could work, since 6 antimatters vs 12 eagle eyes will balance out to a net 0 damage, but in practice, the EEs will come too fast, plus there's the off chance you might not get nova+reflect early enough.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 594 594 594 594 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lg 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 8pj
Game 3: WIN.  I took another look at majofa's deck idea and thought to myself, how could it be improved?  The basic premise is sound, but the problem is that it doesn't have enough CC and healing.  So, I expanded upon the idea and came up with this.  Majofa used quints to keep the AMed EEs alive so that they'd keep healing you.  I ignored the quints and said the heck with it, let Octane empty his hand of firebolts on his own EEs; he'll double draw for sure and deck out that much more reliably.  Ignoring quints also leaves room for other healing cards, and I picked purify and heal because they are immune to deflags.  6 sanctuaries and 6 sundials are vulnerable to deflags, but there are so many that it wasn't a problem; you lose a few, but the rest stick around.  The stoneskins were a last minute addition; I had 4 more card slots to make a 60 card deck and figured, why not?  More healing, and potentially more electrum, and I wasn't using earth quanta anyway.  This game, I won with 260/265 hp and got 100 electrum.

Game 4: LOSS.  Never got an antimatter all game, which made things pretty tough.  Almost everything else worked out fairly well, though.  This deck needs something slightly more to stall better, but it might be tough to do without rares.

Game 5: LOSS.  I had all the cards I needed, although I was a bit quanta shy.  My quantum pillars were complete dicks, and gave me 0 time quanta for the sundials I had in hand, 1 light quanta all game for the 2 sancs I had in hand, 1 water quanta for the two purifies I had in hand, and 0 life quanta for the heal I had in hand.  I got off a reflective shield and an antimatter, and sat looking at all the stall I had, while quanta of every other type piled up.

Game 6: LOSS.  I'm going to retire this deck, or at least change it.  I'll get rid of all the dials/sancs, because they just get exploded anyway, and use more control spells.

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Game 7: WIN.  How the last deck failed so badly and this, with only slight modifications, did so well, I have no idea.  Octane did get a bit of a slow start, but I didn't even get to do anything; I held him off completely with just the entropy stall and the purifies, with reflective shield keeping me alive.  It was so easy that I was able to spam heals at the end for an EM, but I don't expect that to happen very often.  I won by deckout; only saw 2 dolls and no fractal until they were dead.  Octane was at about 150hp due to poisoned dolls from pandemonium and him sniping and lancing the dolls.

Game 8: LOSS.  Explosions wrecked my quantum pillars, and I couldn't get enough entropy to play my pandes and AMs.  I put up a good fight, but was overwhelmed in the end.  Given the reliance on flying EEs, maybe reverse times would help?

Game 9: WIN.  Played it unedited, and did quite well.  Octane had a below average start, though, not getting many eagle's eyes early.


OSIRIS (flooded bones) 0-4
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52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52n 52n 52n 52n 52n 52n 52r 52r 52r 52r 52r 52r 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5ih 5ih 5ih 5ih 5ih 5ih 8pp


Game 1: LOSS.  This was done as a rather silly idea I had brainstorming in chat.  The funny thing is, I think it would have worked, but Osiris got two early momentums and I didn't get any icebolts all game.  Perhaps with some purifies to outheal the momentum damage, or a bit better luck, or fewer copies of some of the other cards...

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52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52n 52n 52n 52n 52n 52n 52r 52r 52r 52r 52r 52r 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ih 5ih 5ih 5ih 8pp
Game 2: LOSS.  Ran a slight mod of this.  It might have actually worked, but I misplayed due to counting damage wrong, and didn't play a bone wall when I should have.

Game 3: LOSS.  1 pend start pretty much sums it up.  I managed to get out the bonewall/flooding combo (too late) and had two turns of hilarity as stuff everywhere died, but since I was at 11hp, I was within catapult OTK range.  It took the AI those turns to figure out that it could actually kill me with catapults :p

Game 4: LOSS.  I finally proved that this deck is a failure, in that I had a very good hand, and got everything to work just as planned.  Early bone wall, early boneyards, early flooding, and lots of scarab production, along with three purifies.  Osiris kept making scarabs, and they kept drowning, and my bone wall ended up growing to over 300 bones at the end.  The scarabs would die, giving me lots of skeletons and walls, and then the skeletons would attack and die, giving me even more walls.  The purifies kept me healing from the one momentumed creature he had early, and eventually I double icebolted it.  Unfortunately, Osiris eventually got three trebuchets out and started catapulting things at me, and the 6hp healing/turn was simply not enough to overcome that.  I did actually get 1 turn away from a win, with Osiris at 9hp, but I lost in the end.


PARADOX 1-0 (fractal hope), 6-2 (mindgate/dim/fractal silliness)
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5if 5if 5if 5if 5la 5la 5lk 5lk 5lk 5lk 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 622 622 622 622 622 8pp

Game 1: WIN.  I stole this deck verbatim from majofa's threads.  I had pretty much a perfect draw; all the quanta I needed, one flayer early, a fractal on time for his RoLs, and a hope in hand ready to play as soon as I got enough light.  I still barely won; even with that perfect draw, I only got control of the game at 8hp; had the AI had something like one more blessing in hand early, which is not unrealistic at all, I'd have lost.  One miracle was played with RoL quanta that was accumulated before everything was lobotomized.  The deck worked, but it's not going to have a good enough win rate to be considered a counter to him, so I'll be trying something else next time.

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Game 2: WIN.  I thought about trying a gravity/light deck with otyughs and sanctuaries and gravity shield; block all his big stuff, eat all his little stuff, and outheal his weapon.  But then I thought of this hilarious deck.  I didn't think it would work, but it was so funny I had to try it.  And I did win :p  It was extremely close, but I also had a 2 pillar start and didn't get another one until about 15 cards in.  (2 pillars was just enough to keep a dimshield chain going, plus I had my sundials)  The idea was to mindgate TUs for whatever the biggest creature on the board was, while stalling with dims and dials.  I ended up discarding most of the mindgates and fractals due to quanta screw, though.  By the end, I thought I was going to deck out, but Paradox didn't play a 3rd miracle when I thought he would, so I won.  (I also only ever mindgated one TU all game, so I couldn't get much of an attack going; in retrospect, I should have included my own PUs)  I'd have lost if I hadn't topdecked a luciferin to go along with the hope I had in hand, because I had no more dims left, and dials would have blocked my own attacks.  I also managed to win with 99/100 hp thanks to a mindgated miracle.  (had I not already spent the lucis to stay alive, the deck could actually EM in theory)  I would -definitely- make some changes to this deck to improve it, based on how things played out.  I'm pretty skeptical about this ever being a counter to Paradox, but holy crap was it ever funny to win with such a retarded deck.

Victory image (because this win was so ridiculous that nobody in their right mind would believe me otherwise)
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Game 3: WIN.  This was so funny I had to try it again... Things were looking rather rough when I couldn't mindgate a TU for a very long time, and I feared I was going to deck out.  The one blessed deja vu I had managed to force one miracle played, but it was slow going.  Eventually I mindgated a TU (in triplicate, because I had three mindgates out by then) and with a host of 20/20 deja vus I quickly overwhelmed Paradox.

Game 4: WIN.  Paradox didn't stack any one creature with blessings for a long time, so he got to play a lot of miracles.  I came close to decking out, but eventually he ran out, and I got the win, while hiding behind an enormous hope shield.

Game 5: WIN.  So awesome :p  I love how a counter deck I built as a complete joke has gone 4-0 so far.

Game 6: WIN.  Almost decked out due to stupid overuse of my own hourglasses, but paradox ran out of miracles when I had 1 card left in the deck.

Game 7: WIN.  Terrible hand resulted in my being very worried, since I couldn't find a fractal or luciferin to get light quanta going, and paradox played three RoLs turn 1, so the odds of my mindgating them dropped.  However, thanks to the AI discarding miracles (I know it had at least 3-4 that it threw away, due to my mindgates) I was able to kill Paradox without him playing any miracles.  I never actually played a Hope; I just dimshielded/sundialed.

Game 8: LOSS.  Got 1 dim and 1 dial all game, no hopes.
Game 9: LOSS.  Dimshield/dial chain broke, and never drew hope.  Mindgates didn't give me anything good all game.

RAINBOW (voodoo universe) 0-1, BH/momentum dunes 0-1, 60 card CC spells 0-3, another 60 card CC spells 0-1, yet another 60 card CC spells 2-5
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55t 55t 595 595 595 595 595 595 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5v0 5v0 5v0 61r 61r 61r 8pu

Game 1: LOSS.  Had only 1 nova early, and all quanta got exploded.  I remember having a few wins with the upped version of this deck, which admittedly is quite a bit faster.  All the dials got blown up as well, leading me to think maybe just using a few precogs would be better for speed. 

This deck might have a chance, but basically, I don't really expect to find an unupped and rareless rainbow counter.  With rares, I think a SoW/reflect deck would have a passable chance, and I think you might have a chance with a light/time blessed dune scorp deck packing 6 miracles and other healing like SoDs, but at that point, you've probably got a bunch of upped cards as well.

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55q 55q 55q 55q 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 8ps

Game 2: LOSS.  Other than needing about 3-4 turns to draw a momentum, this game went pretty much as well as it can possibly do, given this deck.  I drew everything I needed when I needed it, except that slow momentum.  Rainbow got a 1 tower draw.  I still lost, although I did get him down to around 80, and he didn't have the quanta to miracle.  An upgraded nova version of the old SPlat would probably work, but that's not a newbie buildable deck.

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Game 3: LOSS.  I thought this was a rather clever idea.  I was worried it might not have enough quanta, though.  As it turned out, I had 6/8 pillars to start, and I drew NO shockwaves, NO lightnings, and only one firebolt and antimatter for CC all game.  I still stalled for awhile with a bone wall and a black hole, and stole his EE a couple times, but I simply got outrushed.  The idea was to give Rainbow as few targets as possible for his CC/PC, while having enough of my own to handle any threat he posed, and let him just deck himself out with hourglasses.  (at least in theory :p)  I think a mod of this deck might work fairly well.  However, the antimatters will definitely be replaced.  When I played one on a 12/13 forest spectre, he dumped gravity pull, lightning, and two (lolz) congeals on it, freeing up his hand to draw more useful things with hourglasses.  I'll replace the antimatters with pandemoniums next time. (which I almost did anyway)  I'd also considered purify as an indestructible means of healing, but I removed it simply because I had no room for it.  The EA/mindgate thing was mostly just for style points, but it could in theory be quite effective.  I might swap mindgates out for something else, but the EAs will stay; if nothing else, they are usable to protect my quantum pillars from all the PC, as well as any EE or hourglasses I steal.  Deflags might be better than steal; while I can definitely make use of EE here, Rainbow will most likely just steal it back or explode it anyway.  The only trouble with that is I'm already using fire quanta for the bolts.  I think a variant of this might be about as well as can be done unupped against Rainbow, but I'll keep trying.

Game 4: LOSS.  -2 AM +2 pande from previous deck.  Low quanta start and an explosion on a pillar kept me fairly short on quanta.  I drew a decent amount of CC, but it often took me 2-3 turns to build up the quanta for a shockwave or whatever it was I needed.  After rainbow spent a bunch of CC on my pillars, I drew EA and put it on the pillars, and tried stealing his hourglasses, but he had yet more CC and then an eagle's eye :p  Next time I'm going to use more quanta, and I think I will replace several(all?) of the firebolts; they can only kill spectres and lycans at <10 quanta, and then only if played immediately, which with my low quanta production I couldn't do.

Game 5: LOSS.  Was too tired to change anything, and unsurprisingly, lost again.

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Game 6: LOSS.  Changed the previous deck up a bit, and I lasted a -lot- longer, but eventually rainbow simply overwhelmed me with hourglass card advantage, primarily because he drew so much CC that all of my pillars were destroyed and I couldn't play anything.  I might be on the right track, but the deck still needs modifications.

Game 7: LOSS.  1 pillar draw.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vp 4vp 4vp 4vp 4vp 52r 52r 52r 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 592 592 592 592 592 592 5f4 5f4 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5up 5up 5up 5up 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 623 623 8pu
Game 7: LOSS.  Made some slight modifications, notably more protect artifacts.  It was irrelevant, as I had a 1 pillar draw.  7 TTL.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vp 4vp 4vp 4vp 52r 52r 52r 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 592 592 592 592 5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5up 5up 5up 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 623 623 623 8pu
Game 8: LOSS.  Made some more modifications, mostly to include more PC for hourglasses.  Chose deflags over steal so that they can't be stolen back.  Two extremely disappointing pandemonium failures doomed me; had either of them actually killed anything, I might've had a slim chance.

Game 9: WIN.  Well, damn.  Rainbow CAN be beaten unupped and rareless; I was starting to wonder if it was possible, short of a total fail AI draw.  Rainbow did admittedly get a slower than average start, but I also at one point had all my pillars stolen or exploded, so my start wasn't that fast, either.  I also got lucky mindgating a miracle just when I needed it.  And, not only did I beat Rainbow unupped, but thanks to a black hole on the last turn, I got an EM as well!  Who's your daddy now, Rainbow?

Game 10: LOSS.  1 pillar draw.  GG.

Game 11: WIN.  Had pretty much a perfect game.  Turn 2 EA on my pillars, steal/EA on his eagle's eye, bone wall a few turns later, and lots of CC throughout.  Won via deckout with 44hp left and something like 18x bone wall.

Game 12: LOSS.  Rainbow had an extremely fast draw and overpowered me.  I also did not get much CC.
Game 13: LOSS.  Few quantum pillars, and even fewer of the quanta I needed.  Would have been a pretty good game otherwise.

Proof because awesome and hard to believe otherwise:
Spoiler for Hidden:

SCORPIO (voodoo universe) 0-1, rainbow control 0-1, air/aether/water mindgate control 0-1, modded rainbow control 0-2
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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55t 55t 55t 595 595 595 595 595 595 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5v0 5v0 5v0 61r 61r 61r 8pu

Game 1: LOSS.  Never got a voodoo doll in the 20 cards I drew.  I got a lot of sundials that I kept chaining, but the poison buildup killed me.  Might have a chance with a purify or two tossed in, but probably not.

Some people in the scorpio thread mentioned a monoaether with purify variant, but I don't think it will work, at least not rareless.  I once tried it upgraded to see if it would work, and scorpio's permafrost shield means you will almost always deck out before you can kill with elite phase dragons.  Shards of wisdom would probably make that deck work, but as I'm trying to do it rareless, something else will have to suffice.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vp 4vp 52r 52r 5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5oj 5oj 5oj 5rl 5rl 5rl 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 621 621 621 8ps

Game 2: LOSS.  Pillars failed to produce enough aether for dimshield until I had way too much poison for it to matter.  I think a variant of this should be successful, but this definitely needs tweaking.  Wings blocks everything except the lone dragon, and pande kills his physalia/squid fairly well.  Quinted queens to breed, deflags to remove permafrost, and the rest should be fairly obvious.  Bonds for healing might make sense.  I think the bone walls are probably a waste of space.  It would be nice to fit more of... everything, but other than make the deck 60 cards, I'm not sure how to do that.

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5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 623 623 623 623 623 623 8pu
Game 3: LOSS.  I dunno... I just thought it would be fun :p  And it might have worked, but I only got 2 dims and no wings all game, so I ran out of stall about a third of the way into my deck.  If I'd drawn more shields, I think it actually had a bit of a chance.  The idea is to either win by deckout, or mindgate so many creatures that you win that way.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vm 4vm 52n 52n 5c6 5c6 5f6 5f6 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5oj 5oj 5oj 5rl 5rl 5rl 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5up 5up 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 621 621 621 623 623 8pu
Game 4: LOSS.  Game hates me; had purify in hand and made 1 water quanta all game.
Game 5: LOSS.  Not sure if it's true or not, but I felt like I didn't get enough dials or dims as I should have.  I think I'll probably redesign this, but some sort of 60 card stall with purifies is probably the way to go.  Quinted FFQs, however, seem not to be.

SEISM (EA + dims/dragon/fractal) 0-3, rainbow stall 0-2
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592 592 592 592 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 5aa 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61v 61v 61v 622 8pu


Game 1: LOSS.  I got a great opening hand with EA and 6 pendulums, so I never got EQed all game.  However, I only got 2 dims in the top 18 cards, so eventually the chain broke and I died.  I put the 2nd EA drawn on seism's pulverizer, to try and clog his hand with his own PAs, but it didn't make any difference in the end; he drew too much good stuff to play.  This would probably do okay with a better draw.

Game 2: LOSS.  I got 2 EA and all 3 phase dragons in the opening hand.  Never saw a dimshield all game, so 5 ttl.

Game 3: LOSS.  Got only 1 pend in the opening hand, topdecked a second.  Seism miraculously did not quicksand me, despite ending the turn with 4 quanta, so I slapped EA on the pends next turn.  Lots of dimshields to start meant I could chain for a long time, but low quanta meant I couldn't play phase dragons for a long time.  Eventually I got them out, but not until Seism had diamond shield.  I ended up going through 5/6 dims, with the last one in the bottom 4 cards; had I drawn it as the 5th last card, I'd have won.  Instead, I drew the fractal, and played a whole bunch of shriekers, so Seism ended at around 70hp instead of about 120.  This deck looks really cool on paper, but in practice it's going to have a hard time winning.  I had to chain dimshields as soon as I had 6 aether quanta because I was already 1 turn from death that early.  Had I drawn the fractal earlier I could've won, as well.  If all the stars align, this deck can scrape a few wins together, but I'm trying something new next time with a better chance.

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vp 4vp 4vp 4vp 58o 58o 58o 592 592 592 592 592 592 5aa 5aa 5aa 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5t2 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 623 623 623 623 623 623 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 8pu
Game 4: LOSS.  I tried to put together a decent counter, but I had a terrible hand, getting only 2 quanta to start, and one of them was the time pend that was mostly included just to bait quicksands.  I also failed to mindgate any pillars; Seism had a 1 pillar draw and didn't get any more for a long time, but that was enough to quicksand everything, because I didn't get any earth quanta for the five (!) enchant artifacts I had in the first 5-6 turns.  I'm going to try this deck again, likely with modifications.

Game 5: LOSS.  -2 mindgate +2 lightning.  I did a lot better this time around, but with EA for only my quantum pillar stack early on, I didn't have enough quanta to both dimshield and mindgate often enough, so I couldn't build up any sort of attack all game, though I managed to chain dims/dials for a long time.  I mindgated a pulverizer, which sounds better than it was; I destroyed his shield and pulverizer, but couldn't touch his PAed pillars.  When I mindgated a dragon, I foolishly played it and it got rewound, costing me a draw, and possibly the game, depending on what I missed out on.  I think it might be better to just use one type of pillar and cross your fingers that you get EA in time.  In the two games I've played, I did have EA fairly early.  One redundant EA can also be used on mindgated towers.  I'll have to make some changes; in its current form, this deck isn't going to win.

SERKET (*countered*) (wings/dragon/precog) 13-0
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5of 5of 5of 5of 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5rr 5rr 5rr 5rr 8ps


You cannot lose unless you fail to draw wings.  Wings blocks all of serket's creatures, as none of them are airborne, and serket has no removal.

Offline xyan

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108421#msg1108421
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2013, 01:10:10 am »
okay fine, after this one, you can post

over-attached postmaker?

related: following this with interest

Offline timetock

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108422#msg1108422
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2013, 01:12:12 am »
following

Offline CuCN

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108423#msg1108423
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2013, 01:12:27 am »
Are you also going to post your fully upped counters?

Offline Tsmuji

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108425#msg1108425
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 01:21:18 am »
Following for interest. I guess this could be a bit of a community effort too, I'd be willing to try any decks you post against oracle predictions every now and then.

Offline dragonsdemesneTopic starter

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108428#msg1108428
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 01:40:14 am »
Quote
Are you also going to post your fully upped counters?

I'll post them in a separate thread sometime tonight and link to it in 'resources', so as not to clutter this thread with them.

Quote
this could be a bit of a community effort too, I'd be willing to try any decks you post against oracle predictions every now and then.

Absolutely.  The whole point of the decks in this thread will be for the community, especially newer players who can't afford upped cards and don't have 9001  rare weapons and shards and nymphs to use.  Suggestions are certainly welcome.  I have FG: Destiny today, so I'll design my counter for that and post the results above, and then I'll post my upped decks in another thread, along with their current W/L to date, which I've kept track of for my own purposes.

Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108437#msg1108437
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 02:42:00 am »
following, it seems quite interesting

Offline RulacMage11

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Re: Dragonslaying 101 (Or, how to beat the false gods unupped with oracle counters) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52272.msg1108451#msg1108451
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2013, 05:07:53 am »
following as well, and will definitely help test decks.
”Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.”
http://tinyurl.com/MyDeckComp
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anything
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