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Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507018#msg507018
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2012, 10:28:17 pm »
Sounds good. Good luck. :)

I think I'm finished with the templates. You can check them on my user page.
I did not touch current card pages but if you agree we can start to use the templates. Not only the data duplication issue would be solved but the cards would be automatically categorized, too. Everything can be still fine tuned, of course.

I made a howto about configuring cards. And if you install math extensions as well, it will be just perfectly readable  :P.

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507020#msg507020
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2012, 10:31:45 pm »
Nice work, Taffer.
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Offline XenocidiusTopic starter

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507507#msg507507
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 04:23:17 am »
Nice templates, Taffer. I went and tweaked them a little bit. Here are the new ones.

As you can see, Table Block or Card Page are now default, chosen by comparing the card name to the page name. There are also some other things like the addition of sub-types, removal of unnecessary categories, and some more modes.

Since cards will almost always appear as pairs, that is now default, and there is only one data page for both non-upgraded and upgraded.

Out of curiosity, why did you go for a special card template - that is, using {{Card|Psion}} instead of {{Data/Psion}}, {{Data:Psion}} or even {{Card:Psion}}?
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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507515#msg507515
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 04:43:10 am »
Found more than a few tags written as text in a page.
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Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507522#msg507522
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 05:59:11 am »
Nice templates, Taffer. I went and tweaked them a little bit. Here are the new ones.

As you can see, Table Block or Card Page are now default, chosen by comparing the card name to the page name. There are also some other things like the addition of sub-types, removal of unnecessary categories, and some more modes.

Since cards will almost always appear as pairs, that is now default, and there is only one data page for both non-upgraded and upgraded.

Nice refactoring :)
Combining common and upgraded data in Data page is a good idea - it just didn't come into my mind.

Out of curiosity, why did you go for a special card template - that is, using {{Card|Psion}} instead of {{Data/Psion}}, {{Data:Psion}} or even {{Card:Psion}}?

It came so intuitively... If you need to refer a card isn't that obvious to use a Card template? :P Like your <card></card> tags, but if I cannot access wiki engine I can only create templates. Isn't that natural? :) Btw. if something can be solved by templates I think that's the best choice because everyone can add value to it. But in case of a parser function you are the only one who can improve it, which is not so wiki-like. I think custom parsers should be fallbacks for problems cannot be solved other way.

Since I see that in this wiki the convention is to display cards in pairs not just on the page of an element but also in main card articles I created the Card Pair template. I admit using it as {{Card Pair|basic card|upgraded card}} is a redundant usage so it should be just {{Card Pair|Psion}}, for example, but I see you solved this issue.

I intuitively thought that single card is the "unit" and it can be possible that you want to display only a single card without its pair, usually in "Image Only" mode. What do you think is easier to use/comprehend: {{Card|Supernova|Image Only}} or {{Card|Nova|Image Only|Upgraded Only}}?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 06:05:17 am by Taffer »

Offline XenocidiusTopic starter

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507529#msg507529
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 06:18:32 am »
Out of curiosity, why did you go for a special card template - that is, using {{Card|Psion}} instead of {{Data/Psion}}, {{Data:Psion}} or even {{Card:Psion}}?

It came so intuitively... If you need to refer a card isn't that obvious to use a Card template? :P Like your <card></card> tags, but if I cannot access wiki engine I can only create templates. Isn't that natural? :) Btw. if something can be solved by templates I think that's the best choice because everyone can add value to it. But in case of a parser function you are the only one who can improve it, which is not so wiki-like. I think custom parsers should be fallbacks for problems cannot be solved other way.
Seeing as all the card template does is refer to the data page as a template, it seems like an unnecessary step compared to simply referencing the data page directly. Is there any good reason to have that intermediate card template?

Btw. if something can be solved by templates I think that's the best choice because everyone can add value to it. But in case of a parser function you are the only one who can improve it, which is not so wiki-like. I think custom parsers should be fallbacks for problems cannot be solved other way.
I agree, though we might end up protecting those templates anyway, as they make it way too easy for a vandal to globally, albeit temporarily, wreck the Wiki. Also, parser functions and custom tags are often more efficient than templates.

Since I see that in this wiki the convention is to display cards in pairs not just on the page of an element but also in main card articles I created the Card Pair template. I admit using it as {{Card Pair|basic card|upgraded card}} is a redundant usage so it should be just {{Card Pair|Psion}}, for example, but I see you solved this issue.

I intuitively thought that single card is the "unit" and it can be possible that you want to display only a single card without its pair, usually in "Image Only" mode. What do you think is easier to use/comprehend: {{Card|Supernova|Image Only}} or {{Card|Nova|Image Only|Upgraded Only}}?
True, though I actually removed Image Only mode. I prefer the <card> tag for image display purposes, as it's more extendible - for example, letting it float to the left or right, which is a must in featured articles. Adding this functionality to the card template would be inconsistent with its purpose and parameters - then you'll end up having the template split into image handling and table handling, which seems silly.
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Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507564#msg507564
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 09:24:33 am »
Seeing as all the card template does is refer to the data page as a template, it seems like an unnecessary step compared to simply referencing the data page directly. Is there any good reason to have that intermediate card template?

This is simple data-view distinction. Data is responsible for storing data while {{Card}} is responsible for displaying cards in various modes. Okay, technically Data page (in my implementation) also displays the card, by default in data page mode.

Another thing: I prefer if Data pages receive up to one input parameter. If a new card is introduced this is the only somewhat difficult part that a wiki editor needs to create. If there are mandatory {{{2|}}} {{{3|}}} etc. parameters to handle them in various modes it makes difficult to create these pages.

I agree, though we might end up protecting those templates anyway, as they make it way too easy for a vandal to globally, albeit temporarily, wreck the Wiki.
A wiki is always can be target of vandalism. My experiences that vandals usually delete/modify the main page or insert spams with irrelevant links, or make tiny changes like changing "Skill" of a card to some garbage. These don't affect templates. But you can protect sensitive pages so only registered or power users can modify them.

I actually removed Image Only mode. I prefer the <card> tag for image display purposes, as it's more extendible - for example, letting it float to the left or right, which is a must in featured articles. Adding this functionality to the card template would be inconsistent with its purpose and parameters

All is matter of approach. I made Card template for displaying single cards and not card pairs. With this approach it makes sense to use it even to display simple card images because even Image Only mode uses some information of the data page (link target, display name, image filename). Secondly, I prefer isolating responsibility and building complex thing of simple "bricks". So Card Pair uses Card to display pair of cards and both templates have simple source and clean purpose.

Your approach is different, which I don't take worse or better, it's just different. If we say that Card template is responsible for displaying cards in pairs, then you are right, displaying simple images would be unnecessarily difficult by this template. But in this case some logic are duplicated: <card> needs also to determine target link, display name and card image filename from some source.

And you are right, I would not add floating and such to the template. You cannot prepare all of the possible needs so I would use <div> instead. Or specific templates. :P
Check this, for example (btw, I wish to migrate this template, too). How would you prepare for these image placements in <card>?

Offline XenocidiusTopic starter

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507567#msg507567
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 09:53:08 am »
Seeing as all the card template does is refer to the data page as a template, it seems like an unnecessary step compared to simply referencing the data page directly. Is there any good reason to have that intermediate card template?

This is simple data-view distinction. Data is responsible for storing data while {{Card}} is responsible for displaying cards in various modes. Okay, technically Data page (in my implementation) also displays the card, by default in data page mode.

Another thing: I prefer if Data pages receive up to one input parameter. If a new card is introduced this is the only somewhat difficult part that a wiki editor needs to create. If there are mandatory {{{2|}}} {{{3|}}} etc. parameters to handle them in various modes it makes difficult to create these pages.
True. Do you think that the upgrade parameter should simply be removed then? I'd suggest using another template to include the parameters, but I think we may have reached our technical limit. :P

I agree, though we might end up protecting those templates anyway, as they make it way too easy for a vandal to globally, albeit temporarily, wreck the Wiki.
A wiki is always can be target of vandalism. My experiences that vandals usually delete/modify the main page or insert spams with irrelevant links, or make tiny changes like changing "Skill" of a card to some garbage. These don't affect templates. But you can protect sensitive pages so only registered or power users can modify them.
Currently non-registered users can't edit at all, actually, and I'm not sure I want to change that. Deleting isn't a concern either, as only mods can delete pages.

I actually removed Image Only mode. I prefer the <card> tag for image display purposes, as it's more extendible - for example, letting it float to the left or right, which is a must in featured articles. Adding this functionality to the card template would be inconsistent with its purpose and parameters

All is matter of approach. I made Card template for displaying single cards and not card pairs. With this approach it makes sense to use it even to display simple card images because even Image Only mode uses some information of the data page (link target, display name, image filename). Secondly, I prefer isolating responsibility and building complex thing of simple "bricks". So Card Pair uses Card to display pair of cards and both templates have simple source and clean purpose.

Your approach is different, which I don't take worse or better, it's just different. If we say that Card template is responsible for displaying cards in pairs, then you are right, displaying simple images would be unnecessarily difficult by this template. But in this case some logic are duplicated: <card> needs also to determine target link, display name and card image filename from some source.
True, and with your approach it does make sense to let it display images. The <card> tag, however, can so far determine target link, display name and card image filename with 100% accuracy and minimal effort.

And you are right, I would not add floating and such to the template. You cannot prepare all of the possible needs so I would use <div> instead. Or specific templates. :P
Check this, for example (btw, I wish to migrate this template, too). How would you prepare for these image placements in <card>?
That's a clever template, but unnecessary with the <deck> tag. The nice thing about tags is that new parameters can be added indiscriminately, so x and y attributes could be added if need be.

Just an additional note: I like template names to be as short as possible if they're going to be used in a lot of pages. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Card Pair.
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Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507579#msg507579
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 11:33:34 am »
Do you think that the upgrade parameter should simply be removed then?
If we use a common Data page for basic and upgraded cards I'm not sure we can avoid it. If we use separated Data pages (eg. Data/Nova and Data/Supernova) we can avoid the extra parameter. I will accept your decision.

I like template names to be as short as possible if they're going to be used in a lot of pages. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Card Pair.

Hmm... "Cards"?  :D
Firstly I created it as CardPair (without space) but then I renamed it due to wiki conventions.

That's a clever template, but unnecessary with the <deck> tag.
I like <deck> tag and I don't want to ignore it. It's perfect for displaying the deck as a single image. I would just create an optional "Interactive Deck" template because you can click each card of the deck as they work as links. Hmm, isn't the name "Interactive Deck" too long?  :P

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507710#msg507710
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 09:14:55 pm »
Do you think that the upgrade parameter should simply be removed then?
If we use a common Data page for basic and upgraded cards I'm not sure we can avoid it. If we use separated Data pages (eg. Data/Nova and Data/Supernova) we can avoid the extra parameter. I will accept your decision.
Well, you mentioned extra difficulty in creating the pages as a reason against extra parameters, but I think creating twice the amount of pages is more work than one extra parameter that is part of a copy/pasted template anyway. So, I'd say we keep them and go with the single card option.

That's a clever template, but unnecessary with the <deck> tag.
I like <deck> tag and I don't want to ignore it. It's perfect for displaying the deck as a single image. I would just create an optional "Interactive Deck" template because you can click each card of the deck as they work as links. Hmm, isn't the name "Interactive Deck" too long?  :P
One thing you could do is try to create a template using the existing deck tag as a base and then adding carefully spaced hyperlinks. It would be tricky, but ever so pretty.
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Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507717#msg507717
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 09:37:54 pm »
Do you think that the upgrade parameter should simply be removed then?
If we use a common Data page for basic and upgraded cards I'm not sure we can avoid it. If we use separated Data pages (eg. Data/Nova and Data/Supernova) we can avoid the extra parameter. I will accept your decision.

Ok, I made some further experiments to make decision easier. I created a combined data page for Toadfish/Puffer Fish and made an alternative {{Card Display}} template to use such Data pages. Please note that {{Card}}, {{Card Pair}} and {{Card Display Table Block}} templates handle both variations; I needed only change the {{Card Display}} template. (I did not change the Data Page display template so it now displays the basic card data)

Pros:
  • One common data page for both unupped and upped cards

Cons:
  • 2 input parameters in Data page
  • New {{Card Display}} is more difficult than the original one. When passing parameters to table block view many conditions has to be processed (slower)
  • Though there is one actual Data page, upped Data page has to be created as well as a redirection


Offline Taffer

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Re: Building the new Wiki https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40797.msg507719#msg507719
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 09:42:46 pm »
Oh I see you already answered. Okay then, let's do it.  :D

But now I go to sleep  ;D

 

anything
blarg: