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Offline antiaverageTopic starter

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End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1293178#msg1293178
« on: August 07, 2019, 03:55:19 pm »
As many of you already know, Adobe will stop supporting Flash at the end of 2020, and Google also stepped up and said they would outright block Flash in conjunction with this. Mozilla will be doing similarly, although slightly softer.

Here are some primary sources:
https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-flash-update/
https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/saying-goodbye-flash-chrome/
https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2017/07/25/firefox-roadmap-flash-end-life/
https://www.chromium.org/flash-roadmap

This means that, for most people, Elements will no longer be accessible. Some people may wish to set themselves up to still play old Flash games, but if we want to grow this community, we can't rely on that.

To that end, it may be in our best interest to fully support the openEtG project. We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like. It is under much more active development lately, and this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
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Offline serprex

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1293179#msg1293179
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 04:21:53 pm »
Previous discussion: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/flashpocalypse-67275

I've recently added support for different card sets & am working to create a view in oetg where players can play with original cards vs ai2/ai3/ai4/fg

Offline Blacksmith

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294736#msg1294736
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 10:20:46 pm »
We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like.
Could you elaborate that a tad? Because I guess you do mean more than allow people to post about it? is that forbidden now?
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Offline antiaverageTopic starter

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294761#msg1294761
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 03:44:43 pm »
We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like.
Could you elaborate that a tad? Because I guess you do mean more than allow people to post about it? is that forbidden now?

People can post about. I am also saying I think we should also have subforums focused on openEtG.
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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294810#msg1294810
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 11:47:25 pm »
Been said, many times, many ways... what this should have is a full rebranding. And anything less than that should probably be done through a free site rather than one that requires large donations to simply exist.
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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294891#msg1294891
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2019, 10:18:24 am »
I only see one way out of stagnation. That is, to get hundreds of new players at the same time. That is not possible without advertising though.

Let's worry later about how, let's ask what to advertise. Advertising Elements sounds like a bad idea, seeing how it is going to be shut down and how it does not receive development any more. Our only real alternative right now is oEtG. (If anyone is hiding a secret Elements copy project, better to reveal now! ;))

Okay, so let's say we advertise oEtG to be more popular. That means our target group has zero knowledge of Elements. If we cannot rely on nostalgia to draw in new players, we have to make the game inviting. As it is, however, oEtG is not newbie-friendly.

First off, the name. We cannot just call it openEtG with Elements getting shut down. We need to rename it to something cool for better marketing. This should be discussed in a separate topic with a poll.
(On this topic, we should rename permanents to something less of an MTG ripoff.)

Second off, what's with the difficulty of the weakest AI? In Elements, it is common for new players to spend months at AI0 and AI1 to grind their way up, because they can barely stand a chance against AI2 and they complain that AI3 is too hard. I've been there, with my 60-card Anubis deck with Daggers (not Vampire Daggers) and Minor Vampires, with 3 Quantum Pillars in the deck for 12 off-element cards. On the contrary, oEtG's weakest AI is pretty much AI3 in Elements. #BringBackAI0

Staying on the topic of Singeplayer mode, we need to implement a learning curve. We should not introduce new players to a game that plays like Season 5 of Yugioh (where you make 6 moves each turn). With everything happening at once in oEtG, new players would have a hard time to understand and learn everything that happens in one turn if we started them out with combo decks. We need slow gameplay for the weaker AIs.
Example: Play a Salamandra and end turn. Next turn, no action. The following turn, play a Fire Bolt. No Rare cards, by the way. Weak AIs should not have those. Just keep it slow and simple. New players have a lot of cards to memorize, so give them time.

And then comes the real learning curve: PvP. As I see, PvP 1 was the prime way of learning which decks are good. You enter with your 60 card Anubis deck just to see either other 60 card abominations or Dim Shield monos. You start realizing that Dim Shield is good in the meta and you try it out for yourself. Then you see an increase in Immorushes and you try that out too. You start learning.
It was also important that you could just hop in to PvP without knowing anyone. Currently, oEtG only allows PvP Duel and not PvP 1.
Note: Once again, it is important to get a HUGE influx of new players, to allow the noobs to play against the other noobs. If not enough newbies arrive, they will mostly face veterans from the original game who destroy them with advanced decks. That can be very discouraging.

And that's only the AI. Let's talk about the interface. When you start a new game in Elements, the right side of the interface is locked away. As you progress in the game, those parts slowly get unlocked. It also gives you a neat tutorial about removing and adding cards to your deck, buying and selling cards, playing the game and the arena. In oETG, everything is accessible from the getgo. A bunch of those parts should be hidden; new players really only need some weak AIs, a deckbuilder interface, and a place to buy new cards. (Quests are fine too, but probably hide the Colosseum until later.)

We could talk about design choices too, but that's not a high priority. (Pixelated card arts, the gray plank background of the menu, card arts where you do not understand what you are looking at.)

I think these steps should be done before actually advertising the game. After these, we will also need to figure out how and where to advertise. Adding badges to the game on Kongregate was among the plans I heard, but I doubt Kongregate will hold up after the Flashpocalypse, as shown by their attempts to move players to their new platform, Kartridge. We can try a place like Newgrounds - we will need to research which platforms are the best to kickstart new online games. We can kickstart the game on multiple platforms.

If we follow through, it's gonna be a long and hard process, but I don't see any other way to escape the current state of the game and the forum.
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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294892#msg1294892
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2019, 10:56:49 am »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294968#msg1294968
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2019, 07:58:33 pm »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.

Good post Sub. I agree on all the above
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Offline serprex

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1299421#msg1299421
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2020, 04:12:40 pm »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.

Good post Sub. I agree on all the above

So I've taken the time to take a breather before responding to this

Bull. This forum has been keeping Elements alive with zero dev activity for years now

Yeah, you can only develop if you're willing to be a developer, kinda a given. Which isn't hard to get involved with, just ask iancudorinmarian how uncooperative I was with trying to onboard him. Do you have any other obvious statements to make?

& I've stopped developing oetg seriously because it's complete enough that I don't feel compelled to invest anymore of my time/energy along with wasting the time/energy of others. I've always suggested to people who want to get into open source development to seek an existing project which could use their help as opposed to trying to start something new. If you do the latter, expect to be a one man show. I no longer find myself itching to continue programming outside of working hours. If I found that youthful energy again & wanted to get into open source game development again I'd either be experimenting alone (maybe get around to piecing together a bytecode interpreter for luwa) or find a project that I felt could use an extra set of hands

If oetg isn't already what you're looking for & you aren't otherwise willing to put in the work yourself to help it get there, then good for you, cya
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:44:37 am by serprex »

Offline iancudorinmarian

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1299422#msg1299422
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 07:20:27 pm »
serp did an amazing job explaining to me everything I needed to know. The only reason I'm not working on it anymore is that I personally hate javascript and I'm not familiar enough with the framework that's in use.

Offline Septima Rhay

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1301355#msg1301355
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 08:42:21 am »
To that end, it may be in our best interest to fully support the openEtG project. We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like. It is under much more active development lately, and this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.  Wholeheartedly support OpenEtG.  Shared board makes sense; I've had some ideas about blended/social mixer events b/w etg and oetg platforms.  That is not likely to happen now with flash death, but there was/is potential for bridging communities through shared communications and agreeing on building around the oetg platform (I'm not seeing any other options, and plus this is a great option anyway).  Not sure how to quantify level of development, but I see Serprex editing text, fixing bugs, making notes about cards/balances, connecting with players, joining PvP events -- and this appears to be 7 years later after starting this project.  I see Colorless Green's notes on anticipated fixes to graphics, UI, UX, community building, seeking recommendations for new AI decks. I haven't been around long enough, but I understand that Fippe and Spex have been/are contributors, too.  Compared to no development in Etg for what, 8 years?, this level of development in oetg seems like a blessing.  Perhaps even a small, but steady increase in community activity might stir more development and help invoke some changes players have been looking for like improved visuals.  It seems the developments made in oetg are heavily influenced by the EtG community (i.e. card ideas adapted as actual cards); this opportunity seems to still be available.

what this should have is a full rebranding.
I have had no problem with oetg as a name, but I'm open to people's ideas for renaming it.  Might be best for the developers and community to discuss how oetg will develop moving forward before settling on a name, even if that decision is to keep it oetg or Elements: the spiritual reboot etc. etc..  Coincidentally, the name of the event we just ran in oetg may be a name to consider: Affinities.

I only see one way out of stagnation. That is, to get hundreds of new players at the same time. That is not possible without advertising though.

EtG development stagnated.  Oetg carried that mission of development onward and involved community.  But things didn't turn out as rosy as one might hope for.  My recent reading of the history now informs me on the conflicts about oetg as well as many other things in this forum community.  Many of those conflicts appear to have had competitive PvP as an underlying source of tension.  It appears the competitiveness of many players spilled over to other debates and battles for the moral soul of a flash game.  As a more recent player, those disputes all seem like such a waste of human potential and potential of this great game to offer enjoyment, pleasure, a creative and competitive and social outlet. But, it makes sense that these conflicts happen in an online game community because it's difficult being human and interacting with a wide range of humans.

The practical way out of stagnation has already been in place for years: oetg with active development involving community members. Instead of focusing on advertising, getting a mass influx of players, or increasing popularity, could the few remaining in the EtG community talk more about what it values and wants?    Reflecting on the positive roots of the game and the new branch that is oetg, the more recent history of negativity/conflicts/abandoned development, and striving to establish a more open, positive, and healthy community (even if small) seems worthwhile.  And for those that don't continue onward, that's okay.  I'm sure they'll find something else positive in life to work on.  Refocusing around oetg seems like an opportunity for healing and growth.  Perhaps others have already said what they would like moving forward?  If not, here's what I value and wish for:

1. To play and discuss this game with others for sheer enjoyment.
2. To experience an online social community that is kind, flexible, respectful, and egalitarian instead of unkind, rigid, prideful, and elitist
3. To exercise my intellect and creativity through deckbuilding, events, and challenges
4. To watch something beautiful grow and evolve to be even more beautiful
5. To value sportsmanship, learning, and effort above winning, prestige, and outcomes
6. For the community to frequently remind the people who have volunteered their time, energy, and efforts to develop the game and manage the social community that it is worth it, that it is valued, that it impacts them positively
7. Some sense of development, growth, and attention is desired, but it doesn't have to be incredibly robust or fast-paced


we need to implement a learning curve.

Note: Once again, it is important to get a HUGE influx of new players, to allow the noobs to play against the other noobs. If not enough newbies
arrive, they will mostly face veterans from the original game who destroy them with advanced decks. That can be very discouraging.


We could talk about design choices too, but that's not a high priority. (Pixelated card arts, the gray plank background of the menu, card arts where you do not understand what you are looking at.)



Yes, Oetg's design, learning curve, and introduction to PvP could all be improved. Developers seem quite aware, have made notes of this, and seem quite willing to listen to feedback.  I've also really tried to engage new players in the in-game chat to help buffer some of those challenges; I've seen others help, too, but have seen many become inactive soon enough.  New players do seem terrified to PvP; I've confirmed that with a few newbies.  Many of us, like Submachine, have bits and pieces of the issues that confound new players. It is something that should be seriously discussed by those that care and are willing to put some effort into solutions.  Which brings me to the next comment..

 
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.

Submachine, I think you undervalue community members' roles and impacts (and even your own contributions on this topic).  There's tutoring, mentoring, creating forum content, creating fun events, being good teammates, inspiring new deck ideas, testing, etc., etc.  I'll not forgot that we played in Rags2Riches anytime soon, nor that you had some kind comments to make about my play.  Of course we need developers to implement, but I don't think they have time to do all of the tasks a community needs all by themselves.  How much are you willing to follow through with some of your critiques of the game to implement solutions?  If you're not willing to volunteer for action, please carefully consider how you offer critiques.  It's not hard to point out what's wrong with something.  Tempering critique with positive reflection is a good idea.  I imagine the developers of oetg are often being told "this is wrong, this is bugged, this needs fixing, I don't like it that way, what's up with the ugly cards, etc.".  You of course meant well in your posts - to put a light on what can be done, but what's working well (the positive assets) can be focal points to rally around as well - so be sure to include these in feedback.  I'm sure developers are humans, too.  Ones who speak a language that is strange to me, but I think the words praise, love, and like translate well.  Which leads me to my next point..



& I've stopped developing oetg seriously because it's complete enough that I don't feel compelled to invest anymore of my time/energy along with wasting the time/energy of others.

If oetg isn't already what you're looking for & you aren't otherwise willing to put in the work yourself to help it get there, then good for you, cya

I praise Serprex and the other developers for the enormous time and energy that went into oetg.  I'm loving my exploration of oetg during these past 10 months.  It's been a great creative outlet; even if the ideas I have for events never get a go, I don't regret the brainstorming.  I had a blast recently with Affinity and seeing 8 players put in effort.  I've got this terrific little game that helps scratch an itch that I have not found other ways to scratch.  Even if things don't "improve" or "grow", I will still be thankful for the game in the current condition it is in.  I could probably play this current version for many more years and still be finding fascinating decks and creative associations.  I'd probably teach my future kids how to play this as well.  If you in the community have also observed what these folks have done for this game, it might be very kind to send them a note saying so.  Btw, I really like :water in oetg! Thanks to etg and oetg for all the fun times I've had over the years!  The years have gone by in a flash, and I'm open and ready for more.


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