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Offline antiaverageTopic starter

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End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1293178#msg1293178
« on: August 07, 2019, 03:55:19 pm »
As many of you already know, Adobe will stop supporting Flash at the end of 2020, and Google also stepped up and said they would outright block Flash in conjunction with this. Mozilla will be doing similarly, although slightly softer.

Here are some primary sources:
https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-flash-update/
https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/saying-goodbye-flash-chrome/
https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2017/07/25/firefox-roadmap-flash-end-life/
https://www.chromium.org/flash-roadmap

This means that, for most people, Elements will no longer be accessible. Some people may wish to set themselves up to still play old Flash games, but if we want to grow this community, we can't rely on that.

To that end, it may be in our best interest to fully support the openEtG project. We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like. It is under much more active development lately, and this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
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Offline serprex

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1293179#msg1293179
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 04:21:53 pm »
Previous discussion: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/flashpocalypse-67275

I've recently added support for different card sets & am working to create a view in oetg where players can play with original cards vs ai2/ai3/ai4/fg

Offline Blacksmith

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294736#msg1294736
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 10:20:46 pm »
We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like.
Could you elaborate that a tad? Because I guess you do mean more than allow people to post about it? is that forbidden now?
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Offline antiaverageTopic starter

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294761#msg1294761
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 03:44:43 pm »
We should consider at least including openEtG on the regular boards and see what this feels like.
Could you elaborate that a tad? Because I guess you do mean more than allow people to post about it? is that forbidden now?

People can post about. I am also saying I think we should also have subforums focused on openEtG.
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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294810#msg1294810
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 11:47:25 pm »
Been said, many times, many ways... what this should have is a full rebranding. And anything less than that should probably be done through a free site rather than one that requires large donations to simply exist.
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Offline Submachine

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294891#msg1294891
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2019, 10:18:24 am »
I only see one way out of stagnation. That is, to get hundreds of new players at the same time. That is not possible without advertising though.

Let's worry later about how, let's ask what to advertise. Advertising Elements sounds like a bad idea, seeing how it is going to be shut down and how it does not receive development any more. Our only real alternative right now is oEtG. (If anyone is hiding a secret Elements copy project, better to reveal now! ;))

Okay, so let's say we advertise oEtG to be more popular. That means our target group has zero knowledge of Elements. If we cannot rely on nostalgia to draw in new players, we have to make the game inviting. As it is, however, oEtG is not newbie-friendly.

First off, the name. We cannot just call it openEtG with Elements getting shut down. We need to rename it to something cool for better marketing. This should be discussed in a separate topic with a poll.
(On this topic, we should rename permanents to something less of an MTG ripoff.)

Second off, what's with the difficulty of the weakest AI? In Elements, it is common for new players to spend months at AI0 and AI1 to grind their way up, because they can barely stand a chance against AI2 and they complain that AI3 is too hard. I've been there, with my 60-card Anubis deck with Daggers (not Vampire Daggers) and Minor Vampires, with 3 Quantum Pillars in the deck for 12 off-element cards. On the contrary, oEtG's weakest AI is pretty much AI3 in Elements. #BringBackAI0

Staying on the topic of Singeplayer mode, we need to implement a learning curve. We should not introduce new players to a game that plays like Season 5 of Yugioh (where you make 6 moves each turn). With everything happening at once in oEtG, new players would have a hard time to understand and learn everything that happens in one turn if we started them out with combo decks. We need slow gameplay for the weaker AIs.
Example: Play a Salamandra and end turn. Next turn, no action. The following turn, play a Fire Bolt. No Rare cards, by the way. Weak AIs should not have those. Just keep it slow and simple. New players have a lot of cards to memorize, so give them time.

And then comes the real learning curve: PvP. As I see, PvP 1 was the prime way of learning which decks are good. You enter with your 60 card Anubis deck just to see either other 60 card abominations or Dim Shield monos. You start realizing that Dim Shield is good in the meta and you try it out for yourself. Then you see an increase in Immorushes and you try that out too. You start learning.
It was also important that you could just hop in to PvP without knowing anyone. Currently, oEtG only allows PvP Duel and not PvP 1.
Note: Once again, it is important to get a HUGE influx of new players, to allow the noobs to play against the other noobs. If not enough newbies arrive, they will mostly face veterans from the original game who destroy them with advanced decks. That can be very discouraging.

And that's only the AI. Let's talk about the interface. When you start a new game in Elements, the right side of the interface is locked away. As you progress in the game, those parts slowly get unlocked. It also gives you a neat tutorial about removing and adding cards to your deck, buying and selling cards, playing the game and the arena. In oETG, everything is accessible from the getgo. A bunch of those parts should be hidden; new players really only need some weak AIs, a deckbuilder interface, and a place to buy new cards. (Quests are fine too, but probably hide the Colosseum until later.)

We could talk about design choices too, but that's not a high priority. (Pixelated card arts, the gray plank background of the menu, card arts where you do not understand what you are looking at.)

I think these steps should be done before actually advertising the game. After these, we will also need to figure out how and where to advertise. Adding badges to the game on Kongregate was among the plans I heard, but I doubt Kongregate will hold up after the Flashpocalypse, as shown by their attempts to move players to their new platform, Kartridge. We can try a place like Newgrounds - we will need to research which platforms are the best to kickstart new online games. We can kickstart the game on multiple platforms.

If we follow through, it's gonna be a long and hard process, but I don't see any other way to escape the current state of the game and the forum.
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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294892#msg1294892
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2019, 10:56:49 am »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1294968#msg1294968
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2019, 07:58:33 pm »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.

Good post Sub. I agree on all the above
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Offline serprex

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1299421#msg1299421
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2020, 04:12:40 pm »
this is a strong opportunity for the community to help shape the future of Elements.
I'm looking back at the suggestion I made, and I don't see many parts where a community member can do much. The vast majority of actions to be done lie on the developers of oETG. The only thing community members can help with is giving feedback and coming up with new ideas.

For example: Coming up with names, making new card arts, creating AI decks. But ultimately, it will be the developers who decide what they put in the game.

Good post Sub. I agree on all the above

So I've taken the time to take a breather before responding to this

Bull. This forum has been keeping Elements alive with zero dev activity for years now

Yeah, you can only develop if you're willing to be a developer, kinda a given. Which isn't hard to get involved with, just ask iancudorinmarian how uncooperative I was with trying to onboard him. Do you have any other obvious statements to make?

& I've stopped developing oetg seriously because it's complete enough that I don't feel compelled to invest anymore of my time/energy along with wasting the time/energy of others. I've always suggested to people who want to get into open source development to seek an existing project which could use their help as opposed to trying to start something new. If you do the latter, expect to be a one man show. I no longer find myself itching to continue programming outside of working hours. If I found that youthful energy again & wanted to get into open source game development again I'd either be experimenting alone (maybe get around to piecing together a bytecode interpreter for luwa) or find a project that I felt could use an extra set of hands

If oetg isn't already what you're looking for & you aren't otherwise willing to put in the work yourself to help it get there, then good for you, cya
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:44:37 am by serprex »

Offline iancudorinmarian

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Re: End of Adobe Flash and what to do http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67310.msg1299422#msg1299422
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 07:20:27 pm »
serp did an amazing job explaining to me everything I needed to know. The only reason I'm not working on it anymore is that I personally hate javascript and I'm not familiar enough with the framework that's in use.

 

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