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Elements the Game => General Discussion => Elements Articles => Topic started by: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Title: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
There seems to be some confusion among many players about why certain cards act the way the do.  So I've created this reference to help in understanding the principal workings of the game.

If you understand the fundamentals then you can figure out how each card works without being confused by "special cases."  This can in turn help you understand new cards that are implemented as well as how to better integrate a card idea with the game.

This resource was made from accumulated knowledge around the forum, wiki, and in-game testing.  It may have several similarities to other guides but this puts the emphasis on the basic structure of the game.  I have tried to incorporate all of the "unwritten rules" specified in this thread (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.0.html).  Thanks go to all who have created articles, posts, and discussions that have helped countless improve their performance and enjoyment of Elements.  And of course, thanks go to Zanzarino, the most player-focused web game developer in the history of the medium.

Note: Whenever a specific card is listed it refers to both the upgraded and un-upgraded versions unless otherwise stated.

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Jump to a specific topic: Game Conditions (#post_conditions), Cards (#post_cards), Turns (#post_turns), Creatures & Permanents (#post_candp), Creatures (#post_creatures), Passive Skills (#post_passive), Status Effects (#post_status), Transformations (#post_transform), Info Box (#post_box), Special Permanents (#post_special), Quanta-producing Permanents (#post_quanta), Marks (#post_mark), Shields (#post_shield), Weapons (#post_weapon), Spell & Skill effects (#post_effects), Abilities with further elaboration (#post_elaboration).

Game Conditions
These are the variables or "elements" that determine the status of the game and can be manipulated by cards.  Each player has identical variables related to their status.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd80990/blankboard.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/)

Health Points (HP) - If at any point in the game a player's HP reaches zero, that player has lost the game.

Deck - The number of cards remaining in the player's deck is reduced by 1 each time a card is drawn.  If there are no cards remaining when a player attempts to draw that player loses the game.

Poison/Purity Counter - An indication of how many HPs a player will lose or gain after the opponent has finished their turn.  It remains hidden for each player until a Poison or Purify spell is used on that player.  Blue means the counter is positive, purple means it is negative, and yellow means that the player will add -1 each time they play a card (nuerotoxin).

Quanta - Units of an element generated by various cards and used to pay for the use of other cards and abilities.   Quanta are separated by their element but may be converted to other elements through spells and abilities.  If a card's quanta cost is not of a specific element the quanta is chosen randomly from any available quanta.

Hand - May hold up to 8 cards to be played during the player's turn.  There can only be a maximum of 7 cards at the end of the player's turn or the player will be forced to discard one.  Normally a player can not view their opponent's hand but the cards that are played during their turn are revealed.

Cards
Cards are the tools each player has available to them to manipulate the game conditions and the opposing player's cards.  Cards are divided into 3 types: creatures, permanents, and spells.  Creatures and permanents have the potential to remain on the board indefinitely, while spells are resolved the instant they are played.  Creatures and permanents have specific areas of the board where they are generated when played and from which there are 23 slots available for creatures and 19 slots available to permanents.  Once a card is played it vanishes.

Turns
At the start of a game a coin toss determines which player will go first.  Players alternate turns and must wait for the opponent to finish before starting their turn.

At the beginning of a player's turn a card is removed from their deck and placed at the bottom of their hand.  The only exception to this is the very first turn of the game--the starting player does not draw a card.  The player may then play cards or use the abilities of the cards that are already in play.  They may play as many cards or abilities as quanta, board space, and specific card rules allow for, but they may not play the ability of any one card more than once (unless stated otherwise by the card itself).  When a player has completed their turn they click "Done" and then an automated attack phase begins.  Any creatures on their side of the board will make an attack attempt in the order determined by their position.  Then all permanents will take a turn in order by their position.  Once complete, the next player's turn begins.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81866/orderactions.png) (http://imageplay.net/)
(Creature turn order in yellow, permanent turn order in red.)

Creatures & Permanents
There are several characteristics common to both creatures and permanents.  They can be summoned to the board by playing the particular creature or permanent card or through the use of abilities and spells and will occupy the lowest numbered slot available of their type.  If no slots are available a warning message will be displayed to the user and the card will not be played.  Both creatures and permanents may have a skill, also known as an ability, which allows them to affect the game conditions.  There is a limit of one (primary) skill per card.  In the case of creatures the skill is displayed below the creature, and for permanents the ability is displayed at the bottom of the permanent's image.  Skills can either be manually activated or they are triggered automatically.  Activated abilities are those that can be clicked on during a player's turn to produce an effect.  They can be identified by the fact they have a cost listed.  The cost may be an elemental quantum (or quanta) or zero.  All abilities may be used every turn unless removed (either innately or externally).  Automatic abilities do not have a quanta cost and can not be controlled directly; they are performed either during the attack phase or in response to a game situation.  All creatures and permanents are subject to a "summoning sickness", which means that their activated ability may not be used until a turn has passed since they were summoned.  Automatic abilities are not subject to this one-turn delay.  Players may only activate abilities of cards on their side of the board.  If an ability requires a target it can be canceled, however the cost is not refunded.  Once an ability has been canceled it can not be used again that turn.

Creatures
Creatures have additional traits that are unique from permanents: their attack and HP stats, passive abilities, and some status effects.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81014/creature.png) (http://imageplay.net/)

Name - An identifier that dictates the creature's image and passive skills.  It also determines the creature's primary skill and stats prior to any buffs, spells, or status effects.

Attack|HP - Known collectively as the creature's "stats".  The attack (or attack power) is the number subtracted from the opponent's HPs during the attack phase minus any shield defense.  Negative attack thus adds the attack to the opponent's HPs.  If a creature's HP is brought to zero through a spell or ability during a turn it is considered dead and vanishes from the board.  A creature can also die if its HP is zero or becomes zero during its attack--the creature's attack damage is inflicted before the creature dies, unless frozen or delayed.

Primary Ability - As discussed earlier creatures may or may not have one primary skill.  In the picture the Elite Scarab's skill is one that has a cost, thus it can be activated by the player during their turn.  The primary ability of a creature can be removed or replaced (lobotomize, butterfly effect, and liquid shadow).

Passive Skills - These are traits inherent to the creature and can not be activated directly by a player.  They are not removed by lobotomize, butterfly effect, and liquid shadow.

Passive Skills

airborne Characterized as being in the air and is not blocked by Wings.  'airborne' can be removed by the Web skill. burrow Enters play with the burrowed status effect.  (Exclusive to Graboid) chimera When summoned all creatures on the owner's side of the board are combined (and their images removed) to form the attack and HP stats of this creature.  All previous status effects are removed and momentum and gravity pull are added.  (Exclusive to Chimera) devourer Converts a random quantum of the opponent into :darkness for the creature's owner during the creature's attack phase.  (Exclusive to Devourer) mummy Transforms into a Pharaoh when targeted with Reverse Time.  (Exclusive to Mummy) poisonous When devoured, causes infection to the devouring creature. swarm During the attack phase, the difference in the number between this turn and last turn of the owner's similar creatures is added to the creature's current HP.  (Exclusive to Scarab) ranged Not blocked by Wings. voodoo Non-lethal damage is also inflicted on opponent.  Poison counter is copied to opponent.  Freeze and Delay are copied to opponent's weapon slot.  (Exclusive to Voodoo Doll)

Status Effects
Status Effects are conditions applied to creatures (and in some instances to permanents) by spells and abilities.  They may affect what happens to the creature during the attack phase or change how it is affected by other spells and abilities.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81025/effects.png)(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81026/poison.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/)

Status Effects

Adrenaline (http://elementswiki.co.cc/ability/adrenaline/) Allows the creature to have multiple attack attempts per attack phase.  The number of attack attempts (and subsequent damage) is determined by the creature's attack power.  The venom, deadly venom, and nuerotoxin skills and the 'devourer' passive skill are only triggered on the first and last attack attempt of that turn.  Additional applications have no effect. Aflatoxin On death the creature generates a Malignant Cell.  Does not apply to Malignant Cells, Phoenixes, and creatures that perform a self-sacrifice. Burrowed The creature can not be targeted.  It is also not affected by spells that affect all creatures (e.g. Firestorm), or abilities that affect the field (Flooding).  A burrowed creature can still be affected by shields.  The burrowed status is not copied to a new Deja Vu. Delayed The creature or weapon is unable to attack or use its activated or end-of-turn automatic skill.  Condition is removed during the attack phase after a specified number of attack attempts. Infection/Poison The creature takes damage equal to the poison counter each attack attempt. Immortal/Protected The creature or permanent can not be targeted.  It is also not affected by spells that affect all creatures (e.g. Firestorm), or abilities that affect the field (Flooding).  An immortal creature can still be affected by shields. Invulnerable (info box) The creature can not be targeted.  It is also not affected by spells that affect all creatures (e.g. Firestorm), or abilities that affect the field (Flooding).  An immortal creature can still be affected by shields. Frozen The creature or weapon is unable to attack or use its activated or end-of-turn automatic skill.  Condition is removed during the attack phase after a specified number of attack attempts.  Quintessence or Immortality cast on the creature will also remove the frozen status. Gravity Pull The opposing creatures inflict their attack damage to this creature during their attack phase until the creature has died.  A new application removes any previous application from a creature on the same side of the board.  Twin Universe and Deja Vu does not copy the condition to the newly summoned twin. Momentum Allows the creature or weapon to ignore shields.  Can be removed with the 'lobotomize' skill. Mutation (info box) When generated the creature is given a randomly assigned primary skill (with cost of 1 or 2 of the same element as the creature), a random increase in full attack and HP of 0-4, and the current attack and HP will be set to full.  The mutation status is removed if the creature is made invulnerable.

Possible mutation abilities: Hatch, Freeze, Burrow, Destroy, Steal, Dive, Heal, Momentum, Paradox, Lycanthropy, Scavenger, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Mutation, Growth, Ablaze, Poison, Deja Vu, or Immaterial.

Transformations
A creature can transform into other creatures to gain new skills either inherently or through the use of external spells and abilities.
When transformed:

• The old creature does not die, so no death effects are triggered.
• The new creature is not summoned, so it remains in the same spot and is not subject to an additional summoning sickness.  However, if the transformation was activated by the same creature it will have the summoning sickness.
• Attack, HP, primary skill, and passive skills are changed to match the new creature's standard stats.
• All status effects are reapplied to the new creature.  (Exception: Evolve removes burrow and invulnerable).  The Mutation status will change the creature's skill and stats accordingly.

Transformations

Graboid Evolves into Shrieker Ash is Reborn into Phoenix Mummy is Reverse Time'd into Pharaoh Fate Egg or mutant Hatches into a random creature Any targeted creature can be Mutated into a random creature

Some creatures can not be a result of Hatch/Mutation: any flying weapon, Ash, Malignant Cell, Chimera, Fate Egg, Devonian Dragon, Scarab, and Immortal.

Info Box
Hovering the mouse over a creature will display its information box.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81048/info.png) (http://imageplay.net/)

Current ATK and Current HP - These are the creature's stats for this turn and are the same as displayed on the creature's image.

Full ATK - This is what the creature's attack will eventually return to after the Dive or Steam abilities have expired.

Full HP - The maximum HP the current HP can be increased to by using the Holy Light spell or the Heal skill.

Frozen/Delayed - The turns remaining before the particular effect is removed from the creature.

invulnerable/mutation indication - This displays if the creature is either invulnerable (can not be targeted) or has the mutation status.  A creature can not have both status effects.

Attack order - The number in the middle of the box indicates when this creature will attack respective to other creatures on the same side of the board.

Current and full attack and HP can be a maximum of 499.  The minimum attack is -499.
All attack and HP buffs affect both the Current and Full stats except: Dive, Scavenger, Steam, Swarm and Unburrow.
The Full attack and HP can not be decreased except by the destruction of the global buff Nightfall (affects Death and Darkness creatures).

Special Permanents
Some permanents have additional traits not common to creatures or other permanents.  Weapons, shields, and the initial mark also have a reserved spot that may not be inhabited by other permanents.

Quanta-producing Permanents
Pillars and pendulums differ from other permanents in the following ways:

• They are not restricted to the normal 6-card limit when building a deck.
• They do not display their primary ability, generating quanta.
• They can be targeted by the Earthquake, Tsunami, and Nymph's Tears abilities.
• They will be stacked in the same permanent slot if they are of the same type, element, and upgrade status.
• Upgraded pillars and pendulums have a spell like effect of generating quanta when played.

Marks
A Mark is similar to a pillar in that it provides a quantum of the specified element during the attack phase and does not display this ability.  Every player chooses a mark when creating a deck and that mark is automatically integrated into their permanents section (slot 5) when they begin a game.  This initial standard mark can not be targeted and does not count as an additional card when creating a deck.  Additional Marks may be gained by redeeming codes from tournament (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6997.0.html) wins and behave as other quanta producing permanents with the exceptions that they are limited to 6 in a deck and can not be targeted by Nymph's Tears.  However, if an additional Mark is included in the deck that is both un-upgraded and the same element as the standard mark it will stack with the standard mark when played and will gain the targeting protection.

Shields
Shields have the reserved permanent slot 4.  When a shield is played it will replace any shield already in the slot.  Damage reducing shields only reduce positive physical damage and will not reduce damage below zero.  Shields that give attacks a chance to miss affect only positive physical damage and apply to both creatures and weapon permanents.  Shields that cause a status effect or damage only do so to creatures that have inflicted positive damage that turn.

Weapons
Weapons have the reserved permanent slot 10 (which means they will act after all the other permanents on that row).  All weapons have an attack that is only displayed on the weapon card.  Using the Flying Weapon spell will cause the weapon permanent to vanish and a weapon creature will be summoned.  The weapon creature's attack and skill will match the weapon permanent and the HP is determined by the weapon type.  All flying weapons have the 'airborne' passive skill.  Status effects (immortality, frozen, delayed) will not transfer from the weapon permanent to the weapon creature.

Spells and Skill effects
Spell damage is different from physical damage and may be reflected by shields with the reflect ability, but is otherwise unaffected by shields.  Poison is the infliction of a status effect and can not be reflected.  Spells and skills that do not require a target will take effect immediately without the option for cancellation.  Spells and skills that require a target will display a reticle around eligible targets, however not all eligible targets may be affected by the spell or ability.  Quanta refunds are only provided to canceled spells.

List of Abilities (http://elementswiki.co.cc/basics/abilities/)

Abilities with further elaboration
Antimatter - Antimatter is not a status effect; it only multiplies the target creature's attack by -1, so that when it makes an attack attempt the attack power is added to the opponent.  (Subtracting a negative number is the same as adding a positive version of that number).  The vampire skill causes the amount a creature subtracts from the opponent to be added to its owner.  Therefore an antimattered vampire will subtract HPs from its owner.  The nightfall effect adds to a Death or Darkness creature's attack and when removed will subtract the same amount from the attack.  Thus a creature with -4 attack under nightfall will have a -5 attack when nightfall is removed.  Antimatter does not apply to primary skills, so the bonus damage of hammer, bow, and fiery (Fahrenheit) are still added to the creature's attack when it strikes.  Antimatter does not remove primary skills so venom, deadly venom, and neurotoxin will still take effect as normal on a successful attack.  Negative attacks are not affected by damage absorbing (Dissipation and Bonewall), damage reducing, or damage evasion (Fog and Dusk) shields because the attack is not considered "damage".  Shields that cause effects to creatures (Ice, Fire, Thorn, Procrastination) also do not affect antimattered attacks.  Wings, Gravity, and Phase shields will block the appropriate antimattered creatures.  Dive resets the creature's attack to the full attack after one attack attempt, so a creature with -4 attack will attack with -8 by using Dive, but then its attack will change to 4.

Twin Universe and Deja Vu - When a copy is produced by these abilities, the new creature is summoned to the board and will be of the same type as the original creature.  If there is no room the effect will not take place, though the cost for deja vu will be subtracted.  The deja vu skill is removed immediately before the new creature is summoned so neither copy will have it once it is used.  In the case of Twin Universe the creature's primary skill and activation cost are copied to the new creature.  Because it is newly summoned it will suffer the summoning sickness for an activated skill.  All status effects transfer to the new creature except Burrow and Gravity Pull.  All passive skills will be present on the twin that may have been removed from the original (airborne).  The creature's current and full stats will be copied as is--Dive will not reset the new creature's current attack unless the new creature uses the Dive skill itself.  The mutation status will add a new primary skill to the copy, copy the previous creature's full attack and HP and add 0-4 to each, and set the current attack and HP to full.

Burrow and Unburrow - The skill Burrow will gives the burrowed and invulnerable status effects to a creature as well as dividing its current attack in half rounded down.  The skill Burrow is removed and replaced with the skill Unburrow for zero cost.  Using the skill Unburrow removes both the burrowed and invulnerable status even if the creature was given the immaterial status effect previously.  Transforming the creature or targeting it with TU will cause the immaterial symbol to reapply.  Unburrow is replaced with Burrow with the cost of 1 regardless of the cost of Burrow previously.  The creature's current attack is doubled when unburrowing.  A creature that starts with -3 attack will become -2 when burrowed and then -4 when unburrowed again.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 22, 2010, 07:23:24 am

Let me be the first to say that this is a killer thread. Good job. :)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 07:30:19 am

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 22, 2010, 07:23:24 am

Let me be the first to say that this is a killer thread. Good job. :)

I appreciate that.  Much of it is amalgamated from your replies to confused people.   :)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmdt on August 22, 2010, 07:43:21 am

This is a great work and should probably end up as a sticky and/or in the nood section.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Scaredgirl on August 22, 2010, 09:25:43 am

Very cool. I see a lot of work has gone into this. Thanks for posting it.

Now the problem is that there might be too much stuff here. :) Soon you will reach the one-post letter limit. Also the bigger the wall-of-text is, the more difficult it is to use.

We will probably have to either split this into multiple topics, or use a table of contents that has links to anchors inside your post. I can do that for you if you don't know how.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Daytripper on August 22, 2010, 09:57:04 am

I know how these people must feel. Some of the cards absolutely blew my mind and the short discription is not enough to see what an effect really does.

At one point the AI was denying me my attacks. He had no shield. I thought the game was broken. But then I saw whenever that happened a sundial? would explode, but much later. Who figured they'd do that from the line of text on it.

That just keeps happening. Whenever a new card is used against me I barely know what it does unless I read about it or try it myself. So I say always read the wiki or threads like these.

Thanks

Day

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: Scaredgirl on August 22, 2010, 09:25:43 am

Very cool. I see a lot of work has gone into this. Thanks for posting it.

Now the problem is that there might be too much stuff here. :) Soon you will reach the one-post letter limit. Also the bigger the wall-of-text is, the more difficult it is to use.

We will probably have to either split this into multiple topics, or use a table of contents that has links to anchors inside your post. I can do that for you if you don't know how.

Thanks.  Are anchors the same as linking to specific messages in other topics?  Also, will the letter limit display a warning before posting or just cut off the last "however-many" letters from the end of the post?

(Going to bed now.   :) )

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Scaredgirl on August 22, 2010, 10:14:01 am

Quote from: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: Scaredgirl on August 22, 2010, 09:25:43 am

Very cool. I see a lot of work has gone into this. Thanks for posting it.

Now the problem is that there might be too much stuff here. :) Soon you will reach the one-post letter limit. Also the bigger the wall-of-text is, the more difficult it is to use.

We will probably have to either split this into multiple topics, or use a table of contents that has links to anchors inside your post. I can do that for you if you don't know how.

Thanks.  Are anchors the same as linking to specific messages in other topics?  Also, will the letter limit display a warning before posting or just cut off the last "however-many" letters from the end of the post?

(Going to bed now.   :) )

Anchors are a bit different. Instead of linking to a specific url (like a specific reply in a topic), they link to a specific line of text in your post.

Here's an example: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1190.0.html . When you click the "Aether" at the top, it jumps down to Aether part of the post using an anchor.

How was it done?

1. Insert an anchor somewhere inside your post.

Code: [Select]

[anchor=aether]Aether[/anchor]2. Insert a link that points to the anchor you just made.

Code: [Select]

[url=#aether]Aether[/iurl]
When you go over the limit, you will get a warning when trying to post. No text is cut off.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Dragoon on August 22, 2010, 10:19:45 am

Wow!  That is some fantastic work smuglapse.  Not only is it comprehensive and informative, it is very well written and organized with some awesomely descriptive pictures.  Heck, I'd even say it's beautiful.  This most definitely needs to go somewhere stickied so we can easily point new players to this thread.  +Karma for all the hard work.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Gyrodiot on August 22, 2010, 10:23:36 am

This post is truly awesome ! Great work...

Maybe all these information could be added on the Wiki ?

This post is truly awesome (because I had to say it again !)

+ Karma too !

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: PuppyChow on August 22, 2010, 06:13:50 pm

Amazing job, Smuglapse. +Karma, obviously.

Oh, and this will require a lot of upkeep when new cards come out with new status effects and such :).

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmdt on August 22, 2010, 06:23:41 pm

Quote from: Scaredgirl on August 22, 2010, 09:25:43 am

Soon you will reach the one-post letter limit.

What exactly is the limit?  I've always been worried my ttw thread would run over.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Bloodshadow on August 22, 2010, 09:18:29 pm

For the Poison/Purity counters, maybe you can put in Neurotoxin?

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Dragoon1140 on August 22, 2010, 09:29:46 pm

Yea, a little late of a response but this is quite the interesting article.

Congratulations Smug, you win points in the game of life.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: miniwally on August 22, 2010, 10:08:25 pm

I think this should go on the wiki somewhere and be a featured article.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: hrmmm on August 22, 2010, 11:15:07 pm

very nice work, +karma smuglapse

this have to find the way into the wiki. or needs to be a closed! sticky.

hrhr, i imagine this

Quote from: imtoolazytomakeproperquotes on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Quote from: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
...

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: GG on August 23, 2010, 12:37:11 am

this is an awesome article.

do you mind posting this on the wiki, or giving permission to one of the wiki editors to do so?

EDIT : oh; miniwally already suggest it. but i think it deserves a status more than a featured article.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Nume on August 23, 2010, 04:14:13 am

Very nicely done. I feel noobish for saying this, but I never realized the permanents had an order like creatures did. I knew the weapon was after SoGs, but I didnt realize its only after the first row of SoGs (I wondered what happened a few times where I thought i'd heal to full before weapon hit for EM but didnt). I also never knew the exact order of the creatures (I thought it had to do with when they were played rather than their positions) though I did know how to check their order manually :P. Very nice post with a lot of good information.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Kuroaitou on August 23, 2010, 04:34:37 am

(*Wall of text crits Kuroaitou for 738921 damage. Kuroaitou dies*)

But no really, I read the entire article, and I'm just flabbergasted on how much effort you've put into this. :o Well done smuglapse! If this DOESN'T become a wiki-article for one reason or another, then I'm going to be even more shocked...

(P.S. - planning to add 'Steal'/Burrow/Heal to your Spells and Abilities list soon? :P)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 23, 2010, 05:05:37 am

A slight wording suggestion: abilities are actually called skills, and there are two types: active and passive. Right now weapons only have one type of skill, active, and creatures have up to one active and two passive skills. Active is always the text under the icon, while passive is obviously the text under "passive skill". If you make the wording consistent under the Creatures & Permanents section like this, new players will have a firmer grasp of creature and permanent mechanics.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Scaredgirl on August 23, 2010, 07:45:36 am

Quote from: girlsgeneration on August 23, 2010, 12:37:11 am

this is an awesome article.

do you mind posting this on the wiki, or giving permission to one of the wiki editors to do so?

Here's the problem we've been having quite some time now.

We have some identical information in both the forums and wiki. What makes it difficult is that every time we update something, we have to do that in two places, doubling the effort. Most of the time the data gets updated in one place, and not updated in the other which makes it even worse.

I think with every article/post we should either posted on wiki or posted here. Doesn't make much sense to put the same exact thing in both. A simple link would work better than typing everything twice.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: CB! on August 23, 2010, 02:36:03 pm

Wow... very nicely done...

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 23, 2010, 08:21:54 pm

Updated the order of actions pic to include a reserved slots legend.

Quote from: Scaredgirl on August 23, 2010, 07:45:36 am

I think with every article/post we should either posted on wiki or posted here. Doesn't make much sense to put the same exact thing in both. A simple link would work better than typing everything twice.

For the list of abilities I included a link to the appropriate Wiki page.  No sense reinventing the wheel.  If the list of passive skills gets any bigger I may do the same for that.

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 23, 2010, 05:05:37 am

A slight wording suggestion: abilities are actually called skills, and there are two types: active and passive. Right now weapons only have one type of skill, active, and creatures have up to one active and two passive skills. Active is always the text under the icon, while passive is obviously the text under "passive skill". If you make the wording consistent under the Creatures & Permanents section like this, new players will have a firmer grasp of creature and permanent mechanics.

The terms skill and ability are pretty much interchangeable so I'm cool with making those changes.
Here are the problems I have with active vs. passive:

• Passive skills are clearly documented in game.  Is there an in-game source for the term "active skill"?  One can assume since they are opposites that that would be the proper term, but is it?
• The term active is misleading.  I have divided the "active skills' into 'manually activated' and 'automatically triggered'.  Anyone taking the literal definition of passive would think that certain "active skills" are passive: air, light, fire, earth, scavenger, phoenix.  Just compare the devourer passive skill with a RoL's "active" skill.  Without knowledge of the info box, one could easily make the mistake that they are both passive.

I suggest that the term active be replaced with primary.  It doesn't have the same implication on mechanics that active does.  Primary skills can be further divided into activated (or manual) and automatic.  Those terms specifically avoid confusion with passive.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Essence on August 23, 2010, 11:36:17 pm

Further detail: Mutants

Any targeted creature can be Mutated into -- a random Mutant.

Mutants (and Fate Eggs) can become any creature except  Chimera, Fate Egg, Devonian Dragon, Scarab, and Immortal.

Mutants get the benefit of a single Chaos Power in addition to their normal stats, and they gain a random skill (I don't have the list handy) with an activation cost (if relevant) of 1 or 2 quanta of the creature's element.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 24, 2010, 12:32:05 am

Quote from: Essence on August 23, 2010, 11:36:17 pm

Further detail: Mutants

Any targeted creature can be Mutated into -- a random Mutant.

Mutants (and Fate Eggs) can become any creature except  Chimera, Fate Egg, Devonian Dragon, Scarab, and Immortal.

Mutants get the benefit of a single Chaos Power in addition to their normal stats, and they gain a random skill (I don't have the list handy) with an activation cost (if relevant) of 1 or 2 quanta of the creature's element.

I have 'mutation' under status effects, because like other status effects it can be transferred to copies (TU and Deja Vu) via transformations.
Also Chaos Power is 1-5 for both stats, mutants gain 0-4.

---

EDIT to OP:  Made some corrections, added invulnerable status effect, and info about antimatter, TU, and deja vu.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:14:26 am

Actually, all active skills are those skills that appear as text below your creature. There are different types of active skills, but calling them all active skills of different types is much more uniform than calling them "manually activated" or "automatically triggered." In reality, the code (and therefore the game) treats all active skills the same with regard to any effect or skill that affects active skills (Lobotomize, Liquid Shadow, Butterfly Effect, etc.), so calling active skill types by different names is confusing to players, especially the new ones.

Calling active skills by other names and allowing for ambiguity only leads to more confusion. Clearly laying out exact definitions of active skills and passive skills is much more helpful than inventing more terms with longer names. This would only create ambiguity and confusion.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 24, 2010, 09:32:16 am

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:14:26 am

so calling active skill types by different names is confusing to players, especially the new ones.

Calling something active that is clearly passive is also confusing.

---

Evidence:

Quote from: girlsgeneration on August 12, 2010, 11:55:25 pm

You need to understand the differences between 'passive' active abilities and just passive status.

passive active abilities are the ones that does not require triggering, but usually auto-triggers when a creature attacks, etc.

for example, deathstalker's deadly poison is a passive active ability that activates when deathstalker attacks.

passives, however, are the status that could be found when u put the mouse cursor on a creature and wait for the status window to pop up. graboid has 'burrowed' passive, devourer has 'devourer' passive, airborne creatures have 'airborne' passive, etc.
a mutant keeps the passive of the creature that they currently look like. for example, a mutant devourer, regardless of whatever ability it has, retains the devourer's original 'devourer' passive, and therefore takes one quantum from the opponent and transfer it as a darkness quantum to you.

an easy way to distinguish passive (or active) active abilities from passives is lobotomization. all passive active abilities can be loboed, while passives are never loboed. the only way to remove passive, at the moment, is to remove airborne passive by web ability.

Quote from: Bloodshadow on August 13, 2010, 03:10:02 am

@GG: Maybe you should word it more clearly. Call one of them "passive skills" (non-activatable), and the other "passive abilities" (Devourer, Airborne, etc).

Quote from: Kuross on August 20, 2010, 03:45:30 am

Using the above example, a creature with Link (active) and Vampirism (passive) could go on the same creature. Am I getting this right as far as passive/active?

Quote from: xdude on July 02, 2010, 08:25:20 pm

Quote from: The dictator on July 02, 2010, 11:21:09 am

Quote from: xdude on July 02, 2010, 10:42:07 am

Quote from: implosion on July 02, 2010, 12:11:35 am

Graboids are burrowed and devourers still drain quanta. This is because they're passive abilities. Immaterial is an active ability: therefore, it's replaced with another one.

Err, no, it's not an active ability. It's a status.

Err, no, Immaterial is an active ability in this case. It is still displayed under the card after you played it. It is an active ability that is used as soon as the card is put into play. That is why you can't give phase dragons (or immortals, or morning stars) bioluminescence with luciferin, they already have an ability.  It's just like the momentum of a charger for example.

Fine. It's an ability. But a passive one.

Quote from: coinich on April 09, 2010, 02:06:27 pm

Does quanta generation not count as a passive ability?  Damselfly is listed as having air beneath the card, but the new lovely pop-up window doesn't list it.

Quote from: Lanidrak on April 26, 2010, 12:25:52 am

Just a further note on Classifications:

Currently a creature has:
Statistics (Attack Rating | Defense Rating)
Element (One of the 12)
Cost (relative to it's Statistics)
Active Ability (Click this creature to cause ability to happen)
Passive Ability (At the end of your turn, your creature does this)
Status (Your creature is frozen/time bubbled/poisoned)

Quote from: BluePriest on June 13, 2010, 01:02:11 am

What I meant was making momentum, bioluminescence, and adrenaline all passive, since adrenaline cant be removed.
bioluminescence I feel is more passive for RoL than momentum for chargers, which is why i feel that if momentum cant be removed, niether should bioluminescence. Am I making sense? It makes sense in my head, but I dont think im saying it right.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Hyroen on August 24, 2010, 12:17:18 pm

There should be an end it all thread to fully clarify the active-passive skill/ability debate. This seems to be headed to :entropy.

On another note, good work smuglapse! Impressive stuff. I'll be seeing if anything is missing as time goes by.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 07:19:01 pm

Quote from: smuglapse on August 24, 2010, 09:32:16 am

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:14:26 am

so calling active skill types by different names is confusing to players, especially the new ones.

Calling something active that is clearly passive is also confusing.

---

Evidence:

Quote from: girlsgeneration on August 12, 2010, 11:55:25 pm

You need to understand the differences between 'passive' active abilities and just passive status.

passive active abilities are the ones that does not require triggering, but usually auto-triggers when a creature attacks, etc.

for example, deathstalker's deadly poison is a passive active ability that activates when deathstalker attacks.

passives, however, are the status that could be found when u put the mouse cursor on a creature and wait for the status window to pop up. graboid has 'burrowed' passive, devourer has 'devourer' passive, airborne creatures have 'airborne' passive, etc.
a mutant keeps the passive of the creature that they currently look like. for example, a mutant devourer, regardless of whatever ability it has, retains the devourer's original 'devourer' passive, and therefore takes one quantum from the opponent and transfer it as a darkness quantum to you.

an easy way to distinguish passive (or active) active abilities from passives is lobotomization. all passive active abilities can be loboed, while passives are never loboed. the only way to remove passive, at the moment, is to remove airborne passive by web ability.

Quote from: Bloodshadow on August 13, 2010, 03:10:02 am

@GG: Maybe you should word it more clearly. Call one of them "passive skills" (non-activatable), and the other "passive abilities" (Devourer, Airborne, etc).

Quote from: Kuross on August 20, 2010, 03:45:30 am

Using the above example, a creature with Link (active) and Vampirism (passive) could go on the same creature. Am I getting this right as far as passive/active?

Quote from: xdude on July 02, 2010, 08:25:20 pm

Quote from: The dictator on July 02, 2010, 11:21:09 am

Quote from: xdude on July 02, 2010, 10:42:07 am

Quote from: implosion on July 02, 2010, 12:11:35 am

Graboids are burrowed and devourers still drain quanta. This is because they're passive abilities. Immaterial is an active ability: therefore, it's replaced with another one.

Err, no, it's not an active ability. It's a status.

Err, no, Immaterial is an active ability in this case. It is still displayed under the card after you played it. It is an active ability that is used as soon as the card is put into play. That is why you can't give phase dragons (or immortals, or morning stars) bioluminescence with luciferin, they already have an ability.  It's just like the momentum of a charger for example.

Fine. It's an ability. But a passive one.

Quote from: coinich on April 09, 2010, 02:06:27 pm

Does quanta generation not count as a passive ability?  Damselfly is listed as having air beneath the card, but the new lovely pop-up window doesn't list it.

Quote from: Lanidrak on April 26, 2010, 12:25:52 am

Just a further note on Classifications:

Currently a creature has:
Statistics (Attack Rating | Defense Rating)
Element (One of the 12)
Cost (relative to it's Statistics)
Active Ability (Click this creature to cause ability to happen)
Passive Ability (At the end of your turn, your creature does this)
Status (Your creature is frozen/time bubbled/poisoned)

Quote from: BluePriest on June 13, 2010, 01:02:11 am

What I meant was making momentum, bioluminescence, and adrenaline all passive, since adrenaline cant be removed.
bioluminescence I feel is more passive for RoL than momentum for chargers, which is why i feel that if momentum cant be removed, niether should bioluminescence. Am I making sense? It makes sense in my head, but I dont think im saying it right.

I don't call any of those passive, because they aren't passive. In fact, examples like those above are the reason why we have to have a systemized name for these skills instead of calling them whatever we think they should be called. The examples you provided are incorrect and misinformed, and here is why:

• girlsgeneration refers to active skills and "passive active" skills..... huh? How can a skill be both passive and active? Furthermore, discriminating between a passive skill and a "passive active" skill creates all kinds of headaches, especially when the word "status" is brought into the equation. Statuses are not skills. Take, for example, the card Liquid Shadow. It replaces the creature's current active skill with 'vampire' and infects the creature. 'Vampire' is an active skill, and infection is a status. It is important to distinguish between these terms clearly to avoid confusion.
• I already corrected Kuross later in the thread from which you quoted.
• Coinich kind of answered his own question. Quantum generation skills (Air, Earth, Bioluminescence, Incandescence, etc.) are active skills, not passive. Hence, they are listed as active skills, and not listed as passive skills.
• Lanidrak is correct on the classifications, but not their definitions. Active skills that require activation during your turn (i.e. clicking on the creature) are only part of the whole active skill classification. His definition for passive only serves to define yet another subset of active skills, while still falling short of the entire group (Phoenix doesn't fall under either definition). Actives are, simply put, the skill that appears as text under a creature icon while it is in play.
• BluePriest is confusing skills with statuses. Adrenaline is not an active skill but a status, therefore it cannot be removed by lobotomizing effects. Bioluminescence, on the other hand, is an active skill, and thus can be removed by lobotomizing effects. Momentum is a status, not an active skill, but Zanz created an exception that allows for lobotomizing effects to remove momentum, so there can be a countermeasure against momentum.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Nume on August 24, 2010, 07:26:35 pm

I dont think he was trying to say that the people he quoted were right, but rather that it showed how many people are confused by the current system. Especially the whole passive active thing. People get confused because they assume abilities such as bioluminescence and phoenix are passives, since in many other games any ability that you dont have to activate or use yourself is considered a passive. Thus when they see abilities that are actually passives, it makes the whole system seem confusing. Smuglapse is suggesting that a different term should be used for active abilities since people who dont know about passives or dont understand all the workings of the game assume that any ability you dont have to use yourself is a passive, not an active. If that makes any sense...
Edit: Also just to add, I think that the most logical name for the abilities would be like he said to have any ability which is currently classified as active and appears under the cards name be considered a "primary" ability, while any that are currently classified as passive be changed to "secondary" abilities. This would be clear and concise and would eliminate a lot of the confusion.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 24, 2010, 07:47:20 pm

Quote from: Nume on August 24, 2010, 07:26:35 pm

I dont think he was trying to say that the people he quoted were right, but rather that it showed how many people are confused by the current system. Especially the whole passive active thing. People get confused because they assume abilities such as bioluminescence and phoenix are passives, since in many other games any ability that you dont have to activate or use yourself is considered a passive. Thus when they see abilities that are actually passives, it makes the whole system seem confusing. Smuglapse is suggesting that a different term should be used for active abilities since people who dont know about passives or dont understand all the workings of the game assume that any ability you dont have to use yourself is a passive, not an active. If that makes any sense...
Edit: Also just to add, I think that the most logical name for the abilities would be like he said to have any ability which is currently classified as active and appears under the cards name be considered a "primary" ability, while any that are currently classified as passive be changed to "secondary" abilities. This would be clear and concise and would eliminate a lot of the confusion.

Exactly.  And it is not just the fact that the term may be used in many other games... it is the standard English definition of the word.  The terms active and passive are not the invention of Elements the game and have a meaning in of themselves and shouldn't be used as arbitrary place-holding names like Bob or Tom.  If Otyugh was not named Otyugh but instead "Flying No-Mouth Tree" players would be confused as to why it has the function it does.

Primary and secondary make more sense, but the words "passive skills" are already printed in game.  Just because the word passive is used doesn't mean that its opposite has to be used.  A Primary skill (or ability, they mean the same thing) identifies the text under the creature and passive skills are listed in the info box.  The un-upgraded Giant Frog is not Tiny Frog, it's Horned Frog--people are not confused by this.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:01:59 pm

I don't like "primary" and "secondary", because even that allows for confusion. New players, after viewing a card with both a primary and a secondary skill, will want to know how and when they could use the secondary skill if they wanted to. Primary and secondary do not indicate gameplay function, while active and passive are more clear. Active means the skill is dynamic, while passive means that the skill is static. It is like the difference between verbs ser and estar in Spanish. The former is more of a static "to be", while the latter is a more dynamic "to be". You use ser to say something like, "I am a man," something that holds permanence. You use estar to say something like, "I am playing Elements," or, "I was over there," something that is temporary and/or dynamic.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Nume on August 24, 2010, 08:12:01 pm

Yes but by that definition, how could a skill like the Devourer's be considered a static effect, while a skill like phoenix is considered active?

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 24, 2010, 08:37:28 pm

I think ultimately the best description is skill (for active skill) and traits, or passive effects (for passive skills).  Since passive skills are already in-game, I'm OK with that terminology, however using the term active just because it is the opposite is wrong, because it is implying something that does not happen.  And that is what leads to confusion.

Primary, main, principal, major, or exposed are all better than active.

If you call scavenger, phoenix, light, fire, air, earth, venom, or vampire active you might as well call them Astley.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:56:21 pm

I don't know where you got the idea that active skills are called active just because active is the antonym of passive. Absolutely incorrect. In fact, passive skills didn't even exist as a legitimate type until way, way after the active skill set was firmly established. So to say that the original type was coined after the latter was typified doesn't make sense at all.

The devourer skill is one of the most controversial, because it pretty much is an active skill, except for two glaring details: you cannot remove the devourer passive skill, and it is innate to the creature (retained despite mutant status). The original argument in Elements regarding creature skills was that creatures could not have more than one skill. Devourer was considered an exception for a long while until Zanz commented, saying that Devourer's passive skill could not be an active skill, because then it would not have the Burrow skill. He then stated that creatures could not have more than one active skill, and that he gave Devourer its passive skill as a way for a creature to hold more than one skill at a time. A few months later, Zanz came up with more passive skills and a way to identify which creatures had which passive skills.

Scavenger, Phoenix, Light, Fire, Air, Earth, Venom, and Vampire are all non-innate skills that are removable by lobotomizing effects. They are active in the sense that they are trigger-ready, caused by an event (creature death, creature action, successful attack, etc.). Mummy's passive skill actually used to be an active skill, until Zanz made it a passive skill in order to be lobo-proof.

Primary, main, principal, major, or exposed all hint that you could possibly activate a creature's passive skill instead of its active. Passive means that you can't touch it - it's just there and it will happen. Active means that something is required for the skill to happen.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 25, 2010, 02:32:09 am

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 24, 2010, 08:56:21 pm

They are active in the sense that they are trigger-ready, caused by an event (creature death, creature action, successful attack, etc.). Mummy's passive skill actually used to be an active skill, until Zanz made it a passive skill in order to be lobo-proof.

Primary, main, principal, major, or exposed all hint that you could possibly activate a creature's passive skill instead of its active. Passive means that you can't touch it - it's just there and it will happen. Active means that something is required for the skill to happen.

I can activate a creature's passive skill instead of its active.  I can reverse time a mummy and I can cause damage to a voodoo doll so that it reflects on the opponent.  At this point you are completely ignoring obvious facts just to support your argument.  I'm sorry if you've told 1000 newbies that something is called "active skill" and you don't want to be wrong in that aspect, but things change and if there is a logical reason people understand.  You are arguing for the illogical just to keep the definition that you are used to.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 25, 2010, 03:15:54 am

No, I'm not. I'm simply applying the progression of the game's history to the argument. The terms used are as simple as can be, and are clear enough. I see no reason to change the terms.

I already told you why mummy's skill was made passive - Zanz wanted to make it lobo-proof. All skills, both active and passive, can be triggered in some form or fashion. The difference is that active skills are not innate to the creature, and can be removed by lobotomizing effects. Also, anything that requires an activation cannot function as a passive skill, while something like Airborne cannot function as an active skill. The terms are already there. Whether it is/should be active or passive is determined by three factors: how the skill functions, whether or not the skill is innate, and whether it is removable by lobotomizing effects.

I don't ignore facts to support my arguments, ever. I always include multiple concrete examples, but I feel that including everything is a bit superfluous. I'm not sure why your word selection has gone from polite to incendiary. I thought this was a civil discussion about game mechanics. Apparently not, because you have strayed away from the mechanics to take shots at me. There will be no more personal attacks, got it?

I don't tell people what something is called just because "that's the way it's always been called." I am not a traditionalist. In fact, game mechanics have maintained their simplicity despite the changes. The problems occur when people try to put new labels on old mechanics, or try to reinvent the wheel when a new skill is introduced. Every new card that comes out is perfectly usable in the Elements game engine, meaning that fundamental game mechanics will never change.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 25, 2010, 04:23:49 am

If my words seem incendiary it is because I feel like someone is wasting my time.  If you do not mean to do this then I would like to retrace how we got here.

In your first post you said,  "...If you make the wording consistent under the Creatures & Permanents section like this, new players will have a firmer grasp of creature and permanent mechanics."  So to me this means that you think wording is important and should not be confusing to newer players.  Please tell me if I was correct in thinking that.

I reply with, "The term active is misleading...Anyone taking the literal definition of passive would think that certain "active skills" are passive...Just compare the devourer passive skill with a RoL's "active" skill.  Without knowledge of the info box, one could easily make the mistake that they are both passive.  I suggest that the term active be replaced with primary.  It doesn't have the same implication on mechanics that active does..."  Here I am showing that we have the same goal: make the wording less confusing.  I am making the case that the term "active" is confusing.  In my view that is fairly obvious.  I also put forth other word changes and identified that there were differences between how different skills act.  Perhaps that is where we got off track?


I then show several examples of people being confused by the term "active skill" because it is contrary to the English language.
Direct from the dictionary:

Quote

Active –adjective
1.engaged in action; characterized by energetic work, participation, etc.; busy: an active life.
2.being in a state of existence, progress, or motion: active hostilities.
3.involving physical effort and action: active sports.

Photosynthesis is active, you have to click on it.  It involves physical effort of moving your mouse and pressing the left mouse button.

Quote

Passive –adjective
1.not reacting visibly to something that might be expected to produce manifestations of an emotion or feeling.
2.not participating readily or actively; inactive: a passive member of a committee.
3.not involving visible reaction or active participation: to play a passive role.

Earth is passive, you don't click on it.  It happens without your active participation.

Now if you don't agree with this, then the conversation must end.  Because if words don't have definitions then there is no way to communicate.

But next you do show that you have a definition for active: "They are active in the sense that they are trigger-ready, caused by an event (creature death, creature action, successful attack, etc.)."  Ok that makes sense.  They are responding to an event--I can agree that is a form of being active.  It's a weak definition, but passable.

But then in the very next sentence you say "Mummy's passive skill actually used to be an active skill".  That is a contradiction of the definition you came up with.  It reads: Mummy's skill used to respond to an event, now it does not respond to an event.

Do you see why I'm frustrated?

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 25, 2010, 06:53:26 am

You are getting frustrated because there is a breakdown in communication. I can't read your mind, and you can't read mine. All I know is that I offered a suggestion for you to change the wording, if only slightly, to adhere to the terms that are already being used. If terms are to be rehashed, this thread is not the place to do it, but rather the game.

Another reason why you are getting so frustrated is probably that you are more concerned with the name of the skill types than the actual mechanics themselves, while I have focused only on mechanics, using the terms that exist in the game currently as reference points. Yes, the line between active skills and passive skills has blurred a little. However, this does not mean that there isn't a difference between them. While there are two types of skills (active/passive), there are subtypes that do exist. Sure, it is important to note the existence of these subtypes, but the more terms used to describe subtypes when there are only two skill types will most likely confuse players that don't already have a firm grasp of the game's mechanics. Since this guide is aimed at new players, simplicity is better.

Instead of focusing on the differences between skill subsets, why don't we focus on the similarities that make those subsets part of the main set (active/passive), and what differentiates active from passive? Once this is hashed out, then names can be discussed.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 25, 2010, 11:14:05 pm

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 25, 2010, 06:53:26 am

Since this guide is aimed at new players, simplicity is better.

Instead of focusing on the differences between skill subsets, why don't we focus on the similarities that make those subsets part of the main set (active/passive), and what differentiates active from passive? Once this is hashed out, then names can be discussed.

This guide can be used by new players, sure, but I would rather it be a comprehensive reference to the game mechanics.  So it will include every general function that may not make sense at first glance.  I have included the basics as well, so that it can be read from any starting point--beginner to advanced.  I have tried not to include anything speculative or that can't be reproduced in-game.  None of the terms can be official because there is no already existing player's guide, besides the basic rules and level 0 popups.  The terms I use are descriptive of what actually transpires in game, and I don't expect these terms to become in-game labels.

The subset of active skills is an important distinction because of the summoning sickness effect.  Clickable skills are affected, triggered skills are not.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 26, 2010, 12:35:05 am

Of course subsets are important, but it is also to note the difference between the two main skill types. So there are two subtypes in the active skill type, and there are maybe two different subtypes in the passive skill type. What you should include in your guide is the two main types of skills and their differentiating characteristics, followed by the subsets of each and their differentiating characteristics within the main set. As for what to call the main sets, that is now up for discussion.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: miniwally on August 26, 2010, 12:37:24 am

Surely you could just split them into active skills (or active-active) and passive-active/active-passive skills .

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 26, 2010, 01:02:37 am

I have always called the two subtypes of the active skill type "activated" and "triggered". For passive skills, it's easy to just call them all passive, but with the inclusion of Airborne, there are two different subtypes - triggered and static. Those are the names I suggest.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Essence on August 26, 2010, 05:32:23 am

I'd like to step in here and point out that 'active' and 'passive' are game terms, not able to be meaningfully redefined by anyone except Zanz, who has already defined them via the info box: if a skill shows up in the "passive skill" side of the creature info box, it's passive.  Otherwise, it's active.  That's the absolute end of the debate.

You can argue about what to call various kinds of active skill, but those distinctions are made up in your head, and other people are perfectly right in choosing to view and label things in their own way.  'Active' and 'passive' (as used in Elements), however, are predefined by a power greater than any of us.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on August 26, 2010, 05:39:26 am

I have still yet to see where the term active is used in game.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on August 26, 2010, 08:27:10 am

Zanz has referred to active skills in just about every single discussion that happened when he showed up in the chat room to upload a new card to the trainer for beta testing.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: miniwally on August 26, 2010, 11:53:58 am

Quote from: Essence on August 26, 2010, 05:32:23 am

I'd like to step in here and point out that 'active' and 'passive' are game terms, not able to be meaningfully redefined by anyone except Zanz, who has already defined them via the info box: if a skill shows up in the "passive skill" side of the creature info box, it's passive.  Otherwise, it's active.  That's the absolute end of the debate.

You can argue about what to call various kinds of active skill, but those distinctions are made up in your head, and other people are perfectly right in choosing to view and label things in their own way.  'Active' and 'passive' (as used in Elements), however, are predefined by a power greater than any of us.

We know that and it's already been pointed out but for to be able to understand each other it's easier to make our own more detailed labels for easier understanding of each other as long as it doesn't contradict stuff already in game.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Nipuna_shinigami14 on December 04, 2010, 12:59:58 pm

many thanks for the post.. learnt a lot of things....

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Rainmaker on December 11, 2010, 09:20:08 pm

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 23, 2010, 05:05:37 am

A slight wording suggestion: abilities are actually called skills, and there are two types: active and passive. Right now weapons only have one type of skill, active, and creatures have up to one active and two passive skills. Active is always the text under the icon, while passive is obviously the text under "passive skill". If you make the wording consistent under the Creatures & Permanents section like this, new players will have a firmer grasp of creature and permanent mechanics.

Sorry I bring this from page 1, but i have a doubt: Inmaterial Morning Star and Momentum Titan aren't both passive skills? (i don't recall if momentum can be lobed)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: smuglapse on December 11, 2010, 09:51:44 pm

Quote from: Rainmaker on December 11, 2010, 09:20:08 pm

Quote from: jmizzle7 on August 23, 2010, 05:05:37 am

A slight wording suggestion: abilities are actually called skills, and there are two types: active and passive. Right now weapons only have one type of skill, active, and creatures have up to one active and two passive skills. Active is always the text under the icon, while passive is obviously the text under "passive skill". If you make the wording consistent under the Creatures & Permanents section like this, new players will have a firmer grasp of creature and permanent mechanics.

Sorry I bring this from page 1, but i have a doubt: Inmaterial Morning Star and Momentum Titan aren't both passive skills? (i don't recall if momentum can be lobed)

This is why I feel the wording is confusing.

Neither Immaterial or Momentum is listed under 'passive skills' in the info box.  So in that sense they are not passive.

Both Immaterial and Momentum are listed at the bottom of the Permanent image, or below the image when flown.  So they are the 'active', or primary ability of the card, even though you do not have to activate them.

The Immaterial skill applies the invulnerable status (the time symbol) when the creature is spawned.  The Momentum skill applies the momentum status (the M symbol) when the creature is spawned.

Lobo removes Momentum, both the wording below and the M symbol.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 12, 2010, 05:41:43 am

Immaterial and momentum are both statuses. The only reason they appear as text below a creature is for clarity's sake. Sure, it's a little confusing (because they aren't skills) but it would be more confusing to new players to see :time appear on a creature with no explanation as to what it means. The same is true for the momentum status symbol.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Kael Hate on December 12, 2010, 09:52:41 am

Quote from: jmizzle7 on December 12, 2010, 05:41:43 am

Immaterial and momentum are both statuses. The only reason they appear as text below a creature is for clarity's sake. Sure, it's a little confusing (because they aren't skills) but it would be more confusing to new players to see :time appear on a creature with no explanation as to what it means. The same is true for the momentum status symbol.

I would like to clarify this slightly. The skills Momentum and Immaterial that appear on cards give that card the same status when it enters play. The skill only affects entering play and nothing else. If the creature enters play without the skill and later gains it, it will not gain the status, and it is possible to be grated the status without being iussued the skill. Note lobotomiser effects can erase the status momentum because it appears in the skill names list but effects that replace the skill like Liquid Shadows Vampire effect will not affect the status effect momentum.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: ddevans96 on December 17, 2010, 03:51:11 am

I would update the first picture with a silence indicator when it gets in the real game.

Really like this guide though. I can never remember the mutation abilities off the top of my head :)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Chromatophore on October 01, 2011, 08:33:16 am

Quote from: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Delayed

The creature or weapon is unable to attack or use its activated or end-of-turn automatic skill.  Condition is removed during the attack phase after a specified number of attack attempts.

...

Frozen

The creature or weapon is unable to attack or use its activated or end-of-turn automatic skill.  Condition is removed during the attack phase after a specified number of attack attempts.  Quintessence or Immortality cast on the creature will also remove the frozen status.

Hello :)

I came here because i'm fighting Morte and he has a few rays of light out.  I"m trying to decide whether to freeze one of them in order to stop him from getting a light quantum.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that either freeze or delay prevents quanta generation, but the other does not.

Can anyone confirm whether freeze/delay affect end-of-turn automatic skills (or which end-of-turn automatic skills these statuses affect)?

Thanks in advance,
Chroma

P.S. This is a great resource and the information seems to be (at least mostly) still correct for the current version (1.28).

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: willng3 on October 01, 2011, 04:00:43 pm

Delay does not prevent Rays of Light and other quanta generating creatures from generating quanta.  Freeze does prevent them from generating quanta, however.

Devourers do not generate quanta while either delayed or frozen.

Druidic Staff is unaffected by either Freeze or Delay.

Delayed Malignant Cells still produce Cells, but Frozen ones do not.

Since Fahrenheit's damage is dependent on the weapon attacking, Freeze and Delay both stop any damage from taking place.

I might be forgetting something, but these are probably the most common examples.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Chromatophore on October 02, 2011, 09:14:54 am

Thank you very much wil.  =D
  Hope this wasn't too difficult to compile. 

Quote from: willng3 on October 01, 2011, 04:00:43 pm

Druidic Staff is unaffected by either Freeze or Delay.

At this point i'm just asking out of curiosity/love of the game more than anything but is that both permanent staff and flying staff?

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Pineapple on October 02, 2011, 10:07:32 am

Quote from: Chromatophore on October 02, 2011, 09:14:54 am

Quote from: willng3 on October 01, 2011, 04:00:43 pm

Druidic Staff is unaffected by either Freeze or Delay.

At this point i'm just asking out of curiosity/love of the game more than anything but is that both permanent staff and flying staff?

Yeah.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Wyrsa on November 04, 2011, 06:30:00 pm

Well, perhaps I am good at intuiting stuff but I never had problems understanding what a card did... it said on the card. And naturally during my first games I had to read every single card, later I found the wiki and simply read every single card. 

What interests me specifically is exact turn order, for example turn begins, you draw a card, then you have a main phase to play cards, then you attack, then your quanta is produced (pillars, pendulems, and towers first then your mark), then your weapons attack and other permanents heal you, during your opponents turn your purity/poison occurs during the attack phase.  (at least this is how I see it right now, I'd be delighted in a precise turn order)

Just my thoughts. As I have read the wiki and knew the skills and abilities already.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: suxerz on November 04, 2011, 07:45:03 pm

Quote from: Wyrsa on November 04, 2011, 06:30:00 pm

Well, perhaps I am good at intuiting stuff but I never had problems understanding what a card did... it said on the card. And naturally during my first games I had to read every single card, later I found the wiki and simply read every single card. 

What interests me specifically is exact turn order, for example turn begins, you draw a card, then you have a main phase to play cards, then you attack, then your quanta is produced (pillars, pendulems, and towers first then your mark), then your weapons attack and other permanents heal you, during your opponents turn your purity/poison occurs during the attack phase.  (at least this is how I see it right now, I'd be delighted in a precise turn order)

Just my thoughts. As I have read the wiki and knew the skills and abilities already.

Most of these orders are already described in the first post; specifically this part (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11691.0.html#post_turns) of the post.
The draw and playing your card part are pretty straight forward, so I'll try to explain what will happen immediately after you end your turn:

• Each of your creatures attack in a specific order. E.g. creature in slot 1 attack first, slot 2 attack second, an so on.
  
• Each of your permanents (including pillar and pendulum stack) "activates" according to their placement in the permanent slot. Normal or upgraded form doesn't have any effect on this order.
  E.g. if you have an SoG in slot 1, pillars in slot 2, pendulums in slot 11 and a Dagger in your weapon slot;
  
  • You will gain life from the SoG first
    
  • You will gain the quanta from pillar stack
    
  • You will gain the quanta from your mark
    
  • The Dagger will do damage.
    
  • You will gain the quanta from the pendulum stack

On top of this order, creatures and weapons with ability will attack first and then "activates" their ability. E.g: A Vampire will do the damage first and then heal you afterwards have their own specific order. Some abilities may happen before and some may happen after attack. Though this doesn't matter most of the time.

In regards of the purify and poison counter, yes it will only heal or damage you at the end of your opponent's turn. Currently, only these two behave this way.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: preimage on November 04, 2011, 10:14:00 pm

Quote from: suxerz on November 04, 2011, 07:45:03 pm

On top of this order, creatures and weapons with ability will attack first and then "activates" their ability. E.g: A Vampire will do the damage first and then heal you afterwards. Though this doesn't matter most of the time.

Although that holds for the ability Vampire (and many of other abilities), I'm afraid that it is not the case in general. Actually, some of creatures' abilities, as well as all of their statuses, are applied before their attack. For example, the ability Acceleration/Overdrive is applied before a creature's attack so that it deals more damage. Also, the passive ability Swarm which Scarabs have is also applied before each Scarab's attack, so a newly played Scarab does not bypass Gravity Shield.
For creatures' statuses it is natural to think so; one notable thing is that poison counters are also applied before attack. Thus a creature with 6 HP and 2 poison counters on it will bypass Gravity Shield, since the poison counters reduce its HP to 4 (under threshold) before its attack.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: suxerz on November 04, 2011, 11:56:01 pm

Quote from: preimage on November 04, 2011, 10:14:00 pm

Quote from: suxerz on November 04, 2011, 07:45:03 pm

On top of this order, creatures and weapons with ability will attack first and then "activates" their ability. E.g: A Vampire will do the damage first and then heal you afterwards. Though this doesn't matter most of the time.

Although that holds for the ability Vampire (and many of other abilities), I'm afraid that it is not the case in general. Actually, some of creatures' abilities, as well as all of their statuses, are applied before their attack. For example, the ability Acceleration/Overdrive is applied before a creature's attack so that it deals more damage. Also, the passive ability Swarm which Scarabs have is also applied before each Scarab's attack, so a newly played Scarab does not bypass Gravity Shield.
For creatures' statuses it is natural to think so; one notable thing is that poison counters are also applied before attack. Thus a creature with 6 HP and 2 poison counters on it will bypass Gravity Shield, since the poison counters reduce its HP to 4 (under threshold) before its attack.

Ah yes, that's true. Totally forgot about acceleration. I didn't say anything about passive ability (or passive skill or whatever the name is) and status because I feel those are entirely different and didn't think it was necessary because it can get a lot more complicated.  ;)

With that said, I think it'll be interesting if the attack vs ability/skill/passive/status orders will be revealed somehow.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Chapuz on March 11, 2014, 06:19:12 pm

I can't see the images of this thread (I could a pair of months ago). Does anyone have the same trouble? If so, I may remake them (and add Spell damage status to the list)

Title: Re: Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules)
Post by: Monox D. I-Fly on February 09, 2016, 02:25:19 pm

Quote from: smuglapse on August 22, 2010, 06:41:33 am

Transformations

Graboid Evolves into Shrieker Ash is Reborn into Phoenix Mummy is Reverse Time'd into Pharaoh Fate Egg or mutant Hatches into a random creature Any targeted creature can be Mutated into a random creature

Where is Skeleton?[/td][/tr][/table]