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What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289065#msg1289065
« on: May 13, 2019, 12:41:32 AM »
This is a thought experiment I've had on my hiatus from here, while designing other card games. What is the strongest possible card in Elements? This is more of a philosophical exploration of what constitutes "power" in a card game, because there are several approaches one could take to answer that question.

Obviously, there are cards that can claim to be the "strongest", such as Sundial being a ridiculous defensive option, Fractal single-handedly winning games, and Nova being astronomically efficient for its generation...
But Sundial, Fractal, and Nova are all non-comparable: They are put into different decks for different reasons and do different things. Surely, the strongest card would be supreme to all other obvious - without question.

Here are the rules:
- You can invent any new mechanic you want. We don't care if the card even works.
- The textbox can be as crammed as you want. We don't care if the card even fits on an elements card.

So, let's start simple. You're probably thinking of four very simple, elegant words right now:


But, we can go one better. What if you don't draw the card?



Now, we've degenerated the game into a coinflip. Whoever goes first casts this card and wins. But, even this can be made stronger.



This is where things get weird. This card is obviously "stronger" than the above card.
However, think about the previous iteration. Both players would obviously play 6 copies of that card, because why wouldn't they?
What happens if two of this card is cast at the same time?

Either:
1) The person who goes first resolves their copy before or after the other player. This is more powerful in the sense it wins "quicker", but the result is the exact same as the previous iteration.
2) All players play and resolve their copy at the same time, resulting in either a draw or nothing happening. This is blatantly weaker than the previous iteration.

However, even still, we can go one stronger.



Now you don't even have to put the card in your deck! You just automatically win! Take that, Plat decks!
... Except this doesn't deal with the problem. Both players have equal access to this card, meaning that this card results in a draw, or absolutely nothing.

And, finally, do you want to know a card stronger than this?



...We've come full circle. This is stronger than the previous iteration because the previous iteration makes the game either a draw, or does absolutely nothing. This card does something if it doesn't draw, and is an answer to the "do we get to play a game or not" mindgames meta of "is this card in your possession or not", should it draw.

But, can we get even stronger? Yes, most likely.

I'm going to leave this here for everyone else to chime in.
If this sparks a good discussion, then maybe we'll do other topics like "What is the longest possible Elements effect text?" or "What is the most average card possible?" or "What if there were 50 elements?" I'd be interested to see how this goes.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 12:43:36 AM by Espithel »

Offline andretimpa

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289074#msg1289074
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 04:18:47 AM »
Card Name: Bring back Frozengaia
Effect: If this card is in your possession you win, even if your opponent has one copy of this. Don't ask.

Do I win?
Every time a graboid evolves, an elemental gets his wings.
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289107#msg1289107
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 04:15:10 PM »

Card Name: There Can Be Only One!
Effect: If this card is in your possession you win every game instantly.

Simple twist: the card is unique, only one player can own it!


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Offline DoubleCapitals

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289109#msg1289109
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 04:32:29 PM »



The 6 Infinity Shards are the non spells (ie. :gravity:earth:life:water:air:darkness). It should say unique Infinity shard btw
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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289110#msg1289110
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 04:58:30 PM »
The 6 Infinity Shards are the non spells (ie. :gravity:earth:life:water:air:darkness). It should say unique Infinity shard btw

On one hand, it's debatable on whether or not :earth is a spell. On the other hand, there probably weren't enough non-spells to make 6
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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289113#msg1289113
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2019, 05:31:59 PM »
I see your 6 card win condition and raise you a 5 card win condition

X4
+
X1
A̲̗̙͉̓̂̾̒͜͝m̖̞͉̫͎̑̃͛̑̄ ̛͓̹͇͈̟͋͌̀͂N̪̰̭̯̲͑̍̎́͝ö̧̨͖̳͇́̍́̄̚t̖͕̜̘̞̏̉̓͘͠ ̡͓̣̦̗́͆̔̎͠Ǵ̡̡̖̮͚̑̆̎͘ô̹̬͚̩͈̈́̈́̉͝ȍ̥̥̭̮̳̀̓̽͝ď̛͓͓̣̮͇̅̄͝ ͚̙̯̠̹́̓̽̓̚Ẇ̨̖̭͍͎͛͌̃̇ȋ͙̰̬͕͎͊͛̕̕t̡͍̱͇̺͂̍͑̄̕h̙̼̝̖̽̊̈́͂͝ͅ ̠̰̠̤̱̄̉̃͑͝Ḉ̛̟̘̩͎̈́̽̑o̞̤͙̭̣̔́͊̈́̔m̛̯̳͚̪͇̌̀̂̍p̡̘͖̦͔͆́͒̕͝u̢͇̖̪͚͂͗̀̽͝ṭ̢̤͕͉̄̄͊̐̕e̠̙̰̪͗̅̑͌͒ͅȓ̛̭̰̠̭͔͆̒̿

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Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289135#msg1289135
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 10:51:34 AM »
So what if you counter your card with "Your opponent loses the game. Can be cast after your opponent wins. At the start of the game, draw this card." Which can be played reactively to the opponent winning the game.

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289136#msg1289136
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 10:59:04 AM »
I would go with Zso_Zso's idea. This theory works best if only one instance exists of the card. Then you do not have to worry about tied games.

So use your fourth listed card and say that only one player can use it at any time in the world.
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Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289137#msg1289137
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 11:01:55 AM »
I would go with Zso_Zso's idea. This theory works best if only one instance exists of the card. Then you do not have to worry about tied games.

So use your fourth listed card and say that only one player can use it at any time in the world.
And then you use my card, which turns their won game into a lost game. And because the card doesn't say "You win the game", they can't play it back

Offline Submachine

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289138#msg1289138
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 11:06:12 AM »
Then we can just add the following:

+"You win the game even if you lose or tie."
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Offline iancudorinmarian

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289139#msg1289139
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2019, 11:07:53 AM »
Card Name: Not OP, just strong
Effect: If your opponent has an OP card in their collection, win the game. This card is Not OP, just strong.

Offline Jen-i

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Re: What is the strongest possible Elements card? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67176.msg1289489#msg1289489
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 01:13:46 AM »


I suppose the card could be made more powerful by only having one face on it ... but as this is a card from an actual CCG I figured it was worth posting
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