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Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

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Manipulating Immaterial / Immortal / Untargetable status - Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53732.msg1125748#msg1125748
« on: February 10, 2014, 07:52:05 pm »
Okay, I've been around enough to notice that cards aimed at modifying the "immaterial" status are, have been, and likely will continue to be an extremely common occurrence.
I think it would be worthwhile to have a topic here for discussion of such mechanics, both as a reference for beginning card designers and as food for thought for more experienced designers.
My hope is to help promote more original, balanced, and well thought out ideas with respect to this mechanic.
To keep things focused lets start with:

1) When, if ever, should cards with "immaterial" status be allowed to get affected by an effect
 *On a related note, what kinds of effects should be allowed?
2) Is removal of "immaterial" status a viable option (even if temporarily)... More importantly, why or why not?
 * If yes, then what would be some ways to ensure such an effect is kept in balance.
3) More generally, other than the aether element, what other elements could have a good thematic connection to manipulating immaterial status?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:54:53 pm by OdinVanguard »
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Offline Leodip

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Re: Manipulating Immaterial / Immortal / Untargetable status - Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53732.msg1125763#msg1125763
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 09:32:24 pm »
Okay, I've been around enough to notice that cards aimed at modifying the "immaterial" status are, have been, and likely will continue to be an extremely common occurrence.
I think it would be worthwhile to have a topic here for discussion of such mechanics, both as a reference for beginning card designers and as food for thought for more experienced designers.
My hope is to help promote more original, balanced, and well thought out ideas with respect to this mechanic.
To keep things focused lets start with:

1) When, if ever, should cards with "immaterial" status be allowed to get affected by an effect
 *On a related note, what kinds of effects should be allowed?
2) Is removal of "immaterial" status a viable option (even if temporarily)... More importantly, why or why not?
 * If yes, then what would be some ways to ensure such an effect is kept in balance.
3) More generally, other than the aether element, what other elements could have a good thematic connection to manipulating immaterial status?
(starting from the premise that the Immaterial skill is given from the ability those creatures have to shift between dimensions and get back in the "game" dimensions when they attack) (cards may not be balanced, they're just examples) (wording may be wrong, they're just examples)
(1)
Spoiler for Hidden:
Immaterial creatures should be affected by cards' effects when they are friendly (from the owner) and when they are expecially meant for them, playing on the whole "dimensional" stuff. We'll see more examples later.
(2)&(3)
Spoiler for Hidden:
As I said earlier, Immaterial creatures get their immaterial status from being in another dimension when not attacking. If the various dimensions collapse and fuse into one (due to the giant gravity), there's no dimension to escape into for the whole game. I was unsure on whether to make the card Gravity or Entropy. IMHO, Entropy would fit better, due to the whole dimensional stuff, but Gravity is more into the collapse thing. As the card is now, it WON'T remove the immaterial status, but render it useless, although initially the card was meant to fully remove it. Also, in order not to make it too random, I made it as an hard counter to Phase Shields too, although Gravity may not need it.


Taking this into a discursive way:
Immaterial creatures hide into another dimension when they aren't attacking, but they can move at will. This means they SHOULD get buffs (only from the owner, because he's the one moving them). However, in order not to make immortals OP, this wasn't done (most likely, it's like "we cannot communicate with our owner, but we come out a pre-established times to attack") . However, a card, SoW, can actually target Immortals. I think it is due the Shard being able to change dimensions to go and give an helping hand to the Immortal. This means that cards that specifically aim to them CAN be done, although they should be only aimed to them, in order not to make it OP. Dimensional Gift, for example, gives a boost to all and only the immaterial creatures. This is, IMHO, doable.
As for negatively working with the immaterial status (inflicting damage to them, remove the status, ecc...), it follows the same reasoning. As long as, thematically, it has a reason to work and doesn't have many uses aside specifically hitting immaterial creatures (maybe fusing that with "shifting out of phase", given that they work the same way). Example (name sucks, didn't want to call it "dimensional" again). This mostly belongs to Entropy and Gravity (and Aether, but I don't really like betrayals (?) like those), because the other elements are too reality-related. Gravity is doable because of cards like Dimensional Collapse.

Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

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Re: Manipulating Immaterial / Immortal / Untargetable status - Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53732.msg1125834#msg1125834
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 09:53:35 pm »
The idea that immaterial creatures shift "back into phase" to attack is very interesting. I think it opens up the possibility for the :time (via special timing) and maybe :earth (via shields) element to have interactions as well.

In both cases the idea is that, in order for an effect to affect an immaterial creature, it must synchronize to the specific point in time when said creature "materializes" specifically, during the creature's attack.

One interesting point to bring up is that the light element has been used now to confer temporary immaterial status. Would this also warrant giving a light card the ability to buff an immaterial creature for a limited duration as well?

Your ideas about gravitational interactions are interesting too. Maybe a good theme there would be something that interacts via a creatures "mass shadow" that extends across all dimensions. ( a fun link for thematic development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor )

Another thing to consider in this discussion is the impact upon game balance of introducing effects that can bypass or remove immaterial status. Right now, the status is deliberately difficult / expensive to obtain and thus similarly hard to bypass.
Bypassing or manipulating the status runs several risks:
1) Making immaterial creatures OP if beneficial effects that bypass it are too good.
2) Making immaterial status UP if harmful effects that bypass it are too strong.
3) Making the status UP if it is too easy to remove or OP if it is too easy to apply.
4) Manipulation of immaterial status outside of :aether runs the risk of making that element less competitive.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 09:56:43 pm by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
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Offline timetock

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Re: Manipulating Immaterial / Immortal / Untargetable status - Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53732.msg1125879#msg1125879
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 06:23:03 am »
1) Making immaterial creatures OP if beneficial effects that bypass it are too good.
2) Making immaterial status UP if harmful effects that bypass it are too strong.
This is why SoW is sometimes so maddening to play against. With the low cost of 2 :aether (upped), the creature effectively gains +4 atk and bypasses most shields. I can only imagine the horror rage potioning phase dragon and suddenly you've got a near-invincible creature that has immense atk.
I always thought that bestowing immortality creature made them "untouchable". Therefore, no one can buff/debuff it, including the owner of the creature.
Similarly, what would be the point of immortality if they could be CC'd?
I wouldn't use a card that would only do damage to immortal creatures. I don't even see immortals a lot in arena or PvP (there's a lot more than immortals in the game, no?). What use would a card be if it can't hit anything else? (Outer Blow)
3) Making the status UP if it is too easy to remove or OP if it is too easy to apply.
I recently made a card that would "swap" immortality. It was met with controversy, of course. Immortality always stirs up controversy. Similar cards that would tamper with immortality would always be the subject of discussion about thematics and costs, etc. IMO a card that removes immortality and only removes immortality would just be useless against non-immortal creature decks. There really would be no other use for it. And we all know a card that is useless is a kinda bad addition to decks when you want consistency. So when I see a card that removes immortality straight up in front without any additional effects in the CIA section, I don't really support it because that card has no versatility. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that if someone were to come up with a card that removes immortality, I would like to see some additional creative(?) mechanic.
Right now bestowing immortality is restricted to :aether. (:time has Anubis, but that also requires :aether). Giving immortality to high-attack/low-health or even high quanta cost creatures is a nice addition, but :aether cards are pretty expensive to play. I think the state of bestowing immortality right now is balanced and just right.
4) Manipulation of immaterial status outside of :aether runs the risk of making that element less competitive.
I'm not sure even with slight nerfs to immortality will make :aether too UP. Many notable strengths of :aether include spell damage, strong single-target CC, fractal, and dimshield. I suspect even if immortality were to be removed from the game, :aether would still be a popular pick in duos or trios because of its other strengths. (mono :aether would suffer, though.)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 06:27:26 am by timetock »

 

anything
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