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Offline EmeraldTigerTopic starter

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Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205407#msg1205407
« on: September 13, 2015, 05:47:50 pm »


Above is a very rough idea of what the card would look like.

Would we want a mechanic like MTG's morph.
Or
Is there another Face down mechanic we should use?

This has been addressed before, I know. That said, I do not remember the results of that discussion.

Spoiler for A Thought:
ALL Face down should be untargetable and exempt to ALL affects/effects.

Discuss.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 05:58:28 pm by EmeraldTiger »
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Offline Zyardran

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205408#msg1205408
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2015, 05:52:27 pm »
Having the facedown mechanic means untargettable?  I think it's a good idea, if you take away the card's ability to perform what they were meant for. E.g. A pillar facedown becomes untargettable, but no longer produces quanta.
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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205410#msg1205410
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 05:59:51 pm »
I don't like the idea of a facedown card being untargetable, but I do like the idea of a facedown card.  It would increase strategy by including an element of bluffing and analysis of the situation, trying to figure out what your opponent's card is.  There is a certain amount of transparency always present (that "unknown" creature he spent 3 life quanta on just hit me for 2 and poisoned me...) but if enough were created, then it would work better.

Also, perhaps facedown cards could have slightly random stats or abilities?  That way, even if the opponent KNOWS that card is "Great Cthulhu the Unstoppable", for instance, they don't know if he's only got 4hp this time around and will die to shockwave, or if he's got 6hp, or whether he has lobotomize or devour as his ability.  I don't think it should be -too- random, like mutation, but within a certain narrow variance would be acceptable.  (this might also be necessary for the cost, to help hide it)  When a facedown card is targeted, it would become face up, and we could also have cards that interact with facedown cards by revealing them, hiding/resetting them, other cards that get modified by the number of facedown cards. (+1 attack per facedown card, or opponent takes 1 damage for each facedown card, etc)

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205411#msg1205411
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 06:08:00 pm »
Elements prides itself on not sharing mechanics with other games as much as possible. I do not like the idea of morph creatures or flip effect monsters entering the game. On the other hand, I don't mind creatures entering the battlefield cloaked.
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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205476#msg1205476
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 04:42:00 am »
Cloaked but targetable is what the above suggestion was. Very much not morph.

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205526#msg1205526
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 04:19:03 pm »
I don't think so.

1) Consider all the possible benefits of a face down mechanic
2) Realize that you need a lot of face down cards(like Yugioh's default ability for anything to be face down or just a ridiculous* number of face down cards) if you want it to provide any information based advantage against an intelligent opponent.
*Hint MtG has too few Morph cards to play information games
3) What benefits do you have left? Yugioh has a Flip effect(an effect timed at a convenient time tied to a frequent trigger in Yugioh) and MtG allows flipping as a faster than the stack ability(aka cannot be responded to). Of those 2 only the Yugioh one needed to be face down(to hide information) and that information would not be hidden in EtG against a smart opponent.

So while I have not made a complete list for #1, I also have not found anything left(that fits EtG) by #3 that still needed to be face down.
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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205528#msg1205528
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 04:24:05 pm »
If you were willing to create a massive series of these that would make it actually hard to tell the actual identity of a facedown card, yes. You'd need at least 2-3 facedown cards of [type] per element, but assuming the basic idea is to deceive an opponent in PvP it'd have some benefit.

You'd have to have enough motivation to make 15-30 well-designed cards, though.

(Sidenote: Given Project Factory's semi-slump in the Field Manipulation project, projects like these would likely have to be solo efforts or a design team led by a very motivated main designer. If Field Manipulation can prove itself capable of accumulating more activity I may change my opinion on how feasible group projects are here.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:26:50 pm by ZephyrPhantom »

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205568#msg1205568
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2015, 09:55:56 pm »
If you were willing to create a massive series of these that would make it actually hard to tell the actual identity of a facedown card, yes. You'd need at least 2-3 facedown cards of [type] per element, but assuming the basic idea is to deceive an opponent in PvP it'd have some benefit.

All of those in the same element would have the same casting cost and card type, yes? If so that would fool the first degree of savvy players.

To fool the 2nd degree those sets would also have to have common roles(aka if there is 1 rush life card and 2 stall life cards, I would know if it was a the rush one based upon your other cards).

The degree of savvy player above me would be able to narrow it down to only the ones used in juxtaposition with your other cards which doesn't narrow it down much further but does narrow it down some.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 09:58:37 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205635#msg1205635
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 05:40:26 pm »
I don't think so.

1) Consider all the possible benefits of a face down mechanic
2) Realize that you need a lot of face down cards(like Yugioh's default ability for anything to be face down or just a ridiculous* number of face down cards) if you want it to provide any information based advantage against an intelligent opponent.
*Hint MtG has too few Morph cards to play information games
3) What benefits do you have left? Yugioh has a Flip effect(an effect timed at a convenient time tied to a frequent trigger in Yugioh) and MtG allows flipping as a faster than the stack ability(aka cannot be responded to). Of those 2 only the Yugioh one needed to be face down(to hide information) and that information would not be hidden in EtG against a smart opponent.

So while I have not made a complete list for #1, I also have not found anything left(that fits EtG) by #3 that still needed to be face down.

#3 is an interesting point. Players who are paying attention can often decipher what has been played by keeping track of quanta usage and, for creatures, damage timing.

This is part of the reason that we need a very large number of cards to make facedown series work.

It is also partly why cloak had to hide everything and make them essentially untargetable.

I do think it is possible to overcome problem 3, but it may take some creative work.
Specifically
A) Obsucure quanta usage
and
B) Obscure creature damage output

Once those two are unavailable, players can begin playing information games with the opponent.
You wouldn't even necessarily need a large number of cards to do it if, for instance, you had a card that obscured damage and quanta and caused creatures to enter play facedown (but targetable).

Alternately, a card could simply obscure damage output information then flip all of your creatures face down and scramble their positions.

I have seen a lot of attempts at this come through over time. I think the trick is to pull it all together effectively without becoming overly complicated... that might not be so easy to do in one or even a handful of cards.

Obscuring damage output timing isn't an issue under openEtG (and thus, likely cygnia) because the turns are practically instantaneous wrt to the attack phase... That would certainly make testing out facedown creature based mechanics simpler.
For a cloak like variant, you would still need to scramble positioning of course.

I very much would like to see facedown mechanics come into EtG in some way shape or form. More specifically, I would like to see more information game like options so it would be very neat if someone could come with a viable series to introduce it.

And my reasoning is:


... and everyone wonders why :darkness seems so op ;)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 05:48:27 pm by OdinVanguard »
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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205637#msg1205637
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 07:59:56 pm »
I don't think so.

1) Consider all the possible benefits of a face down mechanic
2) Realize that you need a lot of face down cards(like Yugioh's default ability for anything to be face down or just a ridiculous* number of face down cards) if you want it to provide any information based advantage against an intelligent opponent.
*Hint MtG has too few Morph cards to play information games
3) What benefits do you have left? Yugioh has a Flip effect(an effect timed at a convenient time tied to a frequent trigger in Yugioh) and MtG allows flipping as a faster than the stack ability(aka cannot be responded to). Of those 2 only the Yugioh one needed to be face down(to hide information) and that information would not be hidden in EtG against a smart opponent.

So while I have not made a complete list for #1, I also have not found anything left(that fits EtG) by #3 that still needed to be face down.

#3 is an interesting point. Players who are paying attention can often decipher what has been played by keeping track of quanta usage and, for creatures, damage timing.

This is part of the reason that we need a very large number of cards to make facedown series work.

It is also partly why cloak had to hide everything and make them essentially untargetable.

I do think it is possible to overcome problem 3, but it may take some creative work.
Specifically
A) Obsucure quanta usage
and
B) Obscure creature damage output

Once those two are unavailable, players can begin playing information games with the opponent.
You wouldn't even necessarily need a large number of cards to do it if, for instance, you had a card that obscured damage and quanta and caused creatures to enter play facedown (but targetable).

Alternately, a card could simply obscure damage output information then flip all of your creatures face down and scramble their positions.

I have seen a lot of attempts at this come through over time. I think the trick is to pull it all together effectively without becoming overly complicated... that might not be so easy to do in one or even a handful of cards.

Obscuring damage output timing isn't an issue under openEtG (and thus, likely cygnia) because the turns are practically instantaneous wrt to the attack phase... That would certainly make testing out facedown creature based mechanics simpler.
For a cloak like variant, you would still need to scramble positioning of course.

I very much would like to see facedown mechanics come into EtG in some way shape or form. More specifically, I would like to see more information game like options so it would be very neat if someone could come with a viable series to introduce it.

And my reasoning is:


... and everyone wonders why :darkness seems so op ;)
All War is based on deception. You are deceived as to how much information you can hide.

Under cloak I cannot see which creature you blessed. However that does not prevent me from knowing all I need to know about it. I know you cast blessing. I can see how much damage I take(frequently in which clumps which is information regardless of ordering). I can see how much you heal. I can see how much venom I take. Etc. Etc. Cloak can be played in an inefficient deck tailored to allowing Cloak to hide information(whose deck can usually be identified spoiling the majority of that advantage). However Cloak is usually used as a temporary Anti-CC that requires PC(or AoE) to breach.

Now cloak can hide 1 piece of information rather well given non existent assistance. Cloak can hide position(unless damage clump ordering is known as it is in EtG) if creatures could move(via some non existent card).


However IIRC that quote is more relevant to deceiving your opponent about what you have in your deck/hand(your reserves) and deceiving them about what you are going to do(your plans).
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Offline EmeraldTigerTopic starter

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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205638#msg1205638
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 08:05:59 pm »
Could we have a way to hide the type of quanta used?
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Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205641#msg1205641
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 08:15:07 pm »
Could we have a way to hide the type of quanta used?
Information is like a puzzle. The more pieces you leave the better image a player can get. The more pieces you take away the worse image. However there is still an image until you remove all information. Likewise we cannot remove all (or even a majority) of the information and keep this a multiplayer game.

Likewise you can focus on encouraging mistakes rather than hiding information that will be found out.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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blarg: