Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Design Theory => Topic started by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 12:40:36 am

Title: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 12:40:36 am
So top down from my perspective.
we have rainbow (obviously)
 :entropy :death :gravity :earth :life :fire :water :light :air :time :darkness :aether

Constructive
 :earth :life :water :light :air :aether
Destructive
 :entropy :death :gravity :fire :time :darkness

Material
 :earth :fire :water :air
Spiritual
 :darkness :light  :life :death
Cardinal
 :aether :time :entropy :gravity

still deciding on trios
Cool
 :darkness :water :aether
Warm
 :light :fire :time
Calm
 :death :earth :gravity
Free
 :life :air :entropy

Geographical
 :gravity :earth :fire //  :gravity :earth :life
Atmospheric
 :water :air :aether //  :light :air :aether
?
 :entropy :death :darkness //  :death :time :darkness
?
 :time :light :life //  :fire :water :entropy

?
 :death :life :water
?
 :time :aether :air
?
 :light :darkness :fire
?
 :entropy :gravity :earth

Oppisites
 :light :darkness
 :life :death
 :water :fire
 :earth :air
 :entropy :gravity
 :time :aether

Compatibles
 :darkness :death
 :light :life
 :earth :gravity
 :entropy :aether
 :fire :air
 :water :time




of course everyone will have their own versions of these so if you disagree or you can do trio's or if you can name the other quatro please do reply and I'll update
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: EmeraldTiger on November 13, 2015, 12:47:11 am
So top down from my perspective.
we have rainbow (obviously)
 :entropy :death :gravity :earth :life :fire :water :light :air :time :darkness :aether

Constructive
 :earth :life :water :light :air :aether
Destructive
 :entropy :death :gravity :fire :time :darkness

Terrestrial
 :earth :fire :water :air
Can't find a name for it
 :darkness :light :gravity :entropy
Spiritual
 :aether :time :life :death

I don't know how to classify trio's

Oppisites
 :light :darkness
 :life :death
 :water :fire
 :earth :air
 :entropy :gravity
 :time :aether

Compatibles
 :darkness :death
 :light :life
 :earth :gravity
 :entropy :aether
 :fire :air
 :water :time




of course everyone will have their own versions of these so if you disagree or you can do trio's or if you can name the other quatro please do reply and I'll update
Material
 :earth :fire :water :air
Spiritual
 :darkness :light  :life :death
Cardinal
 :aether :time :entropy :gravity

this is what we use for this set.

I see the trios like:
Geo
 :gravity :earth :fire
Atmospheric
 :water :air :aether
?
 :entropy :death :darkness
?
 :time :light :life
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 12:53:42 am
Ok, they both look good to me. Any particular reason for that?
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 12:56:35 am
Edited the OP
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: EmeraldTiger on November 13, 2015, 12:58:10 am
Zanz,(the game designer) established the Material, Cardinal and Spiritual break downs, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Espithel on November 13, 2015, 01:00:12 am
Over at CIA, We have names of duos and all quartets.
You can find the duos, or hybrids, here. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-art/hybrid-marks-(complete)/)

The quartets are correct, and the main reason they're like this, I feel, is because the spiritual elements deal far more with personal life and existence in opposition to the Cardinal elements, which are all about the rules that make things function.

Here's how the layout of the elements worked originally.
(http://www.vrt-designs.com/stuff/elements/elements_int1.jpg)

From that, I would safely say that the trios go :death :life :water, :time :aether :air, :light :darkness :fire, and :entropy :gravity :earth, but that's when we get into not-really-discussed territory that would take ages to get out of.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: CuCN on November 13, 2015, 01:01:15 am
I like this grouping of trios, which is orthogonal to the quartets:

Cool
 :darkness :water :aether
Warm
 :light :fire :time
Calm
 :death :earth :gravity
Free
 :life :air :entropy
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: ddevans96 on November 13, 2015, 01:08:43 am
Zanz,(the game designer) established the Material, Cardinal and Spiritual break downs, as far as I know.

I don't recall him ever establishing the three quartets as official. Bloodshadow used them in his writing in 2010 and over time it became the common interpretation of them, culiminating in the recent CIA rework using them.

There is his diagram here (http://www.vrt-designs.com/stuff/elements/elements_int1.jpg) [EDIT: accessible version here (https://imgur.com/eSTnu7J)] that establishes four pairs [:entropy :gravity | :death :life | :time :aether | :light :darkness] and a quartet [:earth :water :air :fire], but it leaves the other two quartets up for discussion. Since the inner circle has the pairs across from each other (in that case, opposites, which are intuitive and the game confirms by pairing them on the selection screen), in theory the outer circle would also have the pairs across from each other (in that case, leading to the three quartets used today), but he's never officially said as much, to my knowledge.

Personally, I believe the trios, and CuCN just ninja'd me in saying this, should be orthogonal, or taking one from each quartet. There's a lot of different ways to interpret those and I don't really think any is more valid than all the others.

As for groups of six, the game splits the quanta interface into two halves [:darkness :death :earth :fire :gravity :time] and [:water :life :aether :air :entropy :light]. Interestingly, if you connect the pairs on this interface, there's something of a pattern, and it doesn't seem random, so in theory it's possible that you could extrapolate a set of trios from there.

:darkness  :water
:death  :life
:earth  :aether
:fire  :air
:gravity  :entropy
:time  :light

:death :life and :gravity :entropy are right next to each other, both one pair away from the end, making one set of parallel lines. Then, :fire :water and :time :aether start from opposite corners and cross towards the center, making another set of parallel lines. The other connections are the other two corners and the two remaining in the center, with :darkness :light being the longest and :earth :air being the shortest.

As for pulling a trio from these, it's worth noting that each third, from top to bottom, has three elements from a quartet, two on the left and one on the right. The other three on the right are misplaced. To me this is the most intuitive set of trios you can pull out, but there are probably more nuanced patterns in there as well.

Top Left: :darkness :earth :gravity (Steady)
Bottom Left: :death :fire :time (Destructive)
Right: :life :air :entropy (Unbound)
Misplaced: :light :water :aether (Passive)

From Zanz's diagram linked above, you can also pull this set of trios (which I find slightly more difficult to name compared to the above, so I have not):

Western: :gravity :fire :light
Northern: :entropy :earth :death
Eastern: :time :water :life
Southern: :aether :air :darkness

Additionally, crossing the quartets with the quanta-halves gives you six different sets of pairs besides the opposites, two within each quartet: :darkness :death | :light :life || :earth :fire | :water :air || :gravity :time | :aether :entropy. There's a lot of strong synergy in these pairings and I affectionately refer to them as the allies.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 01:11:54 am
I like this grouping of trios, which is orthogonal to the quartets:

Cool
 :darkness :water :aether
Warm
 :light :fire :time
Calm
 :death :earth :gravity
Free
 :life :air :entropy

I really like this set
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: EmeraldTiger on November 13, 2015, 01:19:18 am
 How many trios are there?
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 01:33:02 am
mathematically there are 5775 different versions of the quatros and even more trios, I think
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Espithel on November 13, 2015, 01:38:46 am
mathematically there are 5775 different versions of the quatros and even more trios, I think

A lot of those are going to be repeats. The correct number is far less - There's only approximately 60 unique duos, for example.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: EmeraldTiger on November 13, 2015, 01:41:28 am
mathematically there are 5775 different versions of the quatros and even more trios, I think

A lot of those are going to be repeats. The correct number is far less - There's only approximately 60 unique duos, for example.
I agree with Espithel.

edit: there are 66 Duos.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 01:41:46 am
mathematically there are 5775 different versions of the quatros and even more trios, I think

A lot of those are going to be repeats. The correct number is far less - There's only approximately 60 unique duos, for example.

there are relatively few dues but check the proof here for quatros

http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/Permutations/Permutations.faq.question.333341.html
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: CuCN on November 13, 2015, 01:50:25 am
The number of ways to divide 12 elements into three quartets is 5775, but the number of possible quartets is only 495.

Similarly, there are only 66 duos, but 10395 ways to divide 12 elements into 6 duos.
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 02:00:34 am
The number of ways to divide 12 elements into three quartets is 5775, but the number of possible quartets is only 495.

Similarly, there are only 66 duos, but 10395 ways to divide 12 elements into 6 duos.

can you please show working?
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Nevzara on November 13, 2015, 02:10:27 am
Just out of interest not because I don't believe you
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: RootRanger on November 13, 2015, 04:16:57 am
Here's how I would group them.

Tier 1:
 :aether :fire :entropy

Tier 2:
 :air :darkness :death

Tier 3:
 :time :gravity :)

Tier 4:
 :light :earth :water
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Treldon on November 13, 2015, 07:27:46 am
There are 220 unique trios (12! / (3!*9!) and 495 unique quartets (12! / (4!*8!)
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: antiaverage on November 14, 2015, 10:57:14 pm
There are 220 unique trios (12! / (3!*9!) and 495 unique quartets (12! / (4!*8!)

*(12! / (3!*9!)) and (12! / (4!*8!)) ;)
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: andretimpa on November 14, 2015, 11:58:12 pm
Here's how I would group them.

...

I see what you did there
Title: Re: Element grouping
Post by: Flayne on November 15, 2015, 04:23:12 am
I like this except for one thing that I disagree with.

:time and :entropy should be swapped in the trio section

:time being free

:entropy being warm

I will explain:    ( though if you dislike walls of text or unnecessarily detailed explanations, I highly recommend TL;DR sections 1 and 2 in white, bold and underlined )

The second law of thermodynamics states that when two connected bodies, initially with different temperatures connect thermally, heat always moves from the hotter body into the cold. It can be called an increase in entropy within said isolated system and is a natural process which is irreversible just like many other forms of the second law of thermodynamics which the majority if not all can be applied with the gradual increase entropy that causes the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature.

TL;DR 1: Heat cannot spontaneously flow from a colder location into a hotter location and it is irreversible mostly due to molecular disorder from the heat generating kinetic movement of molecules.

Example: Classically, when a glass falls to the floor, the impact generates kinetic energy which can be interpreted as a molecular rush that momentarily generates a high amount of heat energy in the form of massive and random molecular chaos. In this case, the heat generated instantly dissipates into all directions, however since the floors tight molecular structure blocks some of the heat from the molecular movement, most of the heat rushes upwards and causes molecular chaos within the structure of the glass, shattering it in the process.

The heat dissipation from hot to cold is covered as well as the irreversibility of the chaotic change in molecular structure due to the sudden increase of entropy.



Now, as for :time being free, well lets just say that Time can be interpreted in many different ways, though the classical ways of interpreting it can be left to either linear or cyclical. Linear suggesting a creator or creation beginning the universe and coming to an eventual end and cyclical having more to do with all living beings beings living, dying and being reborn to continue a new cycle.
Time is "free" in the sense that it moves along in whatever fashion being linear or cyclical (or something else), as long as some form of existence itself remains for :time to continue having purpose being free to move in that course however it needs to.
There is also the freedom that we have access to which comes in the form of memories. It certainly is Quasi-time travel, where within your mind you can be in any moment at anytime that has already happened which you can recall, though that essentially comes closer to being personal freedom rather than freedom for time itself but can still be somewhat relatable.

TL;DR 2: :time cannot be controlled nor created or prompted by any physical means directly, which means time is thematically more free than :entropy yet less warm.






blarg: