Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on September 08, 2018, 05:20:34 pm
Introduction
Patient Wardens is a very strong strategy. While I don't think it is by any means the only use for SoP, it's a strong one. I believe that Shard of Patience is one of the few globally usable card in elements for ALL elements, people just don't use it right.
Now, many elements have discovered their own use for Shard of Patience in war, with excellent results. Personal favourites involve Darkness' Patient Pest bow, Times DeVu+Ready Scarabs and air's squids and damsels. However, Patient wardens has so far been the domain of Water and Earth. Now, I thought long and hard about whether I should share this, because it could help other War teams to develop. However, while the new WMs have not yet been chosen, I want it to be clear that SoP is excellent for ALL elements, making it balanced for war. (unlike SoFree which is essentially only usable by air, and ludicrously OP.
These decks all assume current war 'Lieutenant' deckbuilding, with 50% in element, 12 upgrades, 4 of which must be in element.
:entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy
Easy Entropeasy
:death :death :death :death :death
I like this one. Bonewalls are just gravy, but you could easily make it rushier with death's other cheapie critters.
:gravity :gravity :gravity :gravity :gravity
I mean it's a bit of a hat on a hat but it's faster than swallow.
:life :life :life :life :life
Rustle hustle
:fire :fire :fire :fire :fire
You get the idea
:light :light :light :light :light
Yeah this will do
:air :air :air :air :air
This one's great.
Yeah air can go screw itself, i'll build stuff for them when Sofree dies.
:time :time :time :time :time
This one's sweet.
:darkness :darkness :darkness :darkness :darkness
This is sweet
:aether :aether :aether :aether :aether
I mean they can do it bore than anyone else to be fair
Post by: InsignificantWeeaboo on September 08, 2018, 05:24:22 pm
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on September 08, 2018, 05:49:11 pm
Life and Fire deck are the exact same.
fixd
Post by: Manuel on September 08, 2018, 06:22:02 pm
sofree = can only be used in a cool way by air, broken, it also makes a balanced matchup against all these decks, broken²
sopa = can be used by EVERY element, it give u a sort of cc + stallbreaking + resistance to your enemy cc + ability to okho with only 1 copy = balanced
Post by: iancudorinmarian on September 08, 2018, 06:42:02 pm
Anyway, just because it can be used by all elements doesn't make it balanced. By that logic, sundial, dim shield, vagger, discord etc. are balanced, but all dragons are broken because not all elements can make good decks with them.
That's not how it works. Stop trying to make SoP look balanced by comparing it to SoFr. It isn't. SoFr is a crazy broken card, but your beloved SoP is not all that far from it as you'd like us to believe.
These decks actually prove how broken SoP is more than anything else. Just put some cheap garbage creatures (which includes warden), add SoP, gg wp
I'd love to see them both banned or cost an insane amount in the next war.
Post by: worldwideweb3 on September 08, 2018, 06:52:20 pm
Just great, now we'll have a SoP war...
Anyway, just because it can be used by all elements doesn't make it balanced. By that logic, sundial, dim shield, vagger, discord etc. are balanced, but all dragons are broken because not all elements can make good decks with them.
That's not how it works. Stop trying to make SoP look balanced by comparing it to SoFr. It isn't. SoFr is a crazy broken card, but your beloved SoP is not all that far from it as you'd like us to believe.
These decks actually prove how broken SoP is more than anything else. Just put some cheap garbage creatures (which includes warden), add SoP, gg wp
I'd love to see them both banned or cost an insane amount in the next war.
Now that I’m not in fire, I’ll happily agree that sundial is also OP in addition to sofree and sopa :P
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on September 08, 2018, 07:23:02 pm
These decks actually prove how broken SoP is more than anything else. Just put some cheap garbage creatures (which includes warden), add SoP, gg wp
Cheap =/= garbage. Anymore.
One thing i love about sop is that traditional garbage is not anymore.
Post by: iancudorinmarian on September 08, 2018, 07:57:28 pm
Then Fractal is balanced as well, because it makes Ray of Light usable. Discord is balanced as well, because it makes Black Hole usable.
These decks actually prove how broken SoP is more than anything else. Just put some cheap garbage creatures (which includes warden), add SoP, gg wp
Cheap =/= garbage. Anymore.
One thing i love about sop is that traditional garbage is not anymore.
That's also not how it works. Sure, it's nice to see some cards you never see in pvp otherwise, but the price is too high. Does anyone really want a meta centered around SoP and its (few) counters?
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on September 08, 2018, 09:00:18 pm
And SoP has many counters. trust me, I have tested.
Post by: Manuel on September 08, 2018, 09:09:32 pm
sofree (but it should be banned)
multiple lucky pande + rof
draw 4 sopa in initial hand
bottom deck all creatures
use wrong mark
??
jokes aside, maybe we should wait until the new wm is announced
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 08, 2018, 09:21:51 pm
And just by presenting them as viable war decks... you are kind of marking the strategy as OP.
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on September 08, 2018, 09:32:42 pm
And just by presenting them as viable war decks... you are kind of marking the strategy as OP.
Disagree here. OP in my book means creating an imbalance within teams. I actually think with shards allowed other than air's all war teams are MORE balanced than without. Nova graboid is usable for all teams. It is strong, but not OP (no matter how much I hate team earth's grabbows, I know i just have to deal with them.
Post by: shockcannon on September 08, 2018, 11:36:11 pm
Post by: iancudorinmarian on September 09, 2018, 07:15:51 am
Dusk mantle, vampire stiletto, and steal. GG SoPa and SoFree decks.If only that were true. Try it, you'll see you'll get absolutely murdered.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 09, 2018, 09:15:42 am
So, theoretically, adding a 0 cost creature with 666 attack and shield bypass would not make this card OP, just because any team can use it? It even has two counters: Sundial and SoSac.And just by presenting them as viable war decks... you are kind of marking the strategy as OP.
Disagree here. OP in my book means creating an imbalance within teams. I actually think with shards allowed other than air's all war teams are MORE balanced than without. Nova graboid is usable for all teams. It is strong, but not OP (no matter how much I hate team earth's grabbows, I know i just have to deal with them.
A card is overpowered if it can not be ignored. Use it, counter it, or face horrible defeat. That is the definition of OP. With the creature example I just mentioned this becomes obvious, but where does one draw the line? For me, SoFree and SoPa are both well over it.
Post by: Mr Muffin on September 10, 2018, 04:01:31 pm
Post by: ddevans96 on September 10, 2018, 09:36:56 pm
A card is overpowered if it can not be ignored. Use it, counter it, or face horrible defeat. That is the definition of OP. With the creature example I just mentioned this becomes obvious, but where does one draw the line? For me, SoFree and SoPa are both well over it.
But this is exactly why SoFr is so much worse - because other elements can't use it the way Air can, they can usually only counter it or lose. It's viable for most other elements, but not the same way SoP is (or Nova/Graboid, or VDag, or Discord, etc)
SoP is still OP, but this is why there's a massive gap between SoFr and the other problem cards (which is not just SoP, even if it does lead that pack)
Post by: Manuel on September 10, 2018, 11:26:04 pm
last war bows like this (or with nymphs>boid)
and darkdom was the mvp for air, they played sofree only against gens and aether or something like that
if with that insane price sofree is still broken idk what to say, u are all implying i start every round 1-0 with it, which isn't true
last war sofree got a lot of wins because every match with it was planned, isn't a card u can use brainless and get the ez win, do u think if u switch the roster of some team of the last year with the air one u get the same exact war?
i waste a lot of money for them + i predict the match up + i don't missplay etc = i deserve the win, i think is totally normal
u can't blame sofree if someone wasted tons of money for """veterans""" players rather than for cards and some elements got nerfed by market prices
Post by: ddevans96 on September 11, 2018, 12:11:17 am
if with that insane price sofree is still broken idk what to say
...
i waste a lot of money for them + i predict the match up + i don't missplay etc = i deserve the win, i think is totally normal
I agree that it wasn't broken last War, just very strong. The point is that it needed such a high price just to be close to balanced. If we started with an empty slate, SoFr would need many more restrictions than any other card to be balanced - last War accomplished this, previous Wars didn't.
last war bows like this (or with nymphs>boid) and darkdom was the mvp for air
Grabbows and dark domins have been MVPs for many teams over the years. I still don't see how people think SoP is so much worse than that.
Post by: Manuel on September 11, 2018, 12:59:35 am
i can agree to a 450/500 price IF this war will be with only 3 matches/round (but i don't think looking at three man pvp and his 10 teams)
Post by: iancudorinmarian on September 11, 2018, 05:17:01 am
Water players: "SoFr is broken, only air can use it, SoP is balanced, everyone can use it!"
Air players: "No u"
Everyone else: "Both are broken af"
I'm with the majority of everyone else here and I'd be incredibly happy to see both SoFr and SoP outright banned or heavily cripple the vault of those who dare to buy it.
Post by: Basman-1453 on September 11, 2018, 06:54:55 am
This discussion is like
Water players: "SoFr is broken, only air can use it, SoP is balanced, everyone can use it!"
Air players: "No u"
Everyone else: "Both are broken af"
I'm with the majority of everyone else here and I'd be incredibly happy to see both SoFr and SoP outright banned or heavily cripple the vault of those who dare to buy it.
Well summarised. Truth be told, I believe this thread inadvertently proves that Patience is more over the line than Freedom. This is not to say that Freedom is not past the line, however; it's still well past that line. It's just that while Freedom is wildly past that line for those few deck types, Patience is a tad less wildly past that line for a much broader deck types.
Post by: ddevans96 on September 11, 2018, 07:39:23 am
This discussion is like
Water players: "SoFr is broken, only air can use it, SoP is balanced, everyone can use it!"
1) I'm not a water player and haven't been for two years
2) At no point have I called it balanced - quite the opposite
Post by: dawn to dusk on September 11, 2018, 11:15:50 am
So uhh the statement holds true thenThis discussion is like
Water players: "SoFr is broken, only air can use it, SoP is balanced, everyone can use it!"
1) I'm not a water player and haven't been for two years
2) At no point have I called it balanced - quite the opposite
SoFree is broken because it's strong but only Air can use it
SoPa is broken because it's strong and everyone can use it
:)
Post by: Manuel on September 11, 2018, 05:05:38 pm
k
Post by: CactusKing on September 11, 2018, 09:50:05 pm
I like that JCJ is trying to show us SoPa can be used by just about anyone, some of those decks are pretty creative, but the point about that making it balanced for War simply doesn't hold water. If anything, that fact that any team can use such a powerful card makes it MORE centralising to the meta, not less. Making shards like this cheaper is a bad idea.
Even so, I'm still of the stance that no legitimate card should be banned from the entirety of War. Appropriate market pricings and better preparation from particularly vulnerable elements (looking at you :aether) will help.
Post by: InsignificantWeeaboo on September 11, 2018, 10:51:25 pm
...but the point about that making it balanced for War simply doesn't hold water...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VGg_HTls8ME/hqdefault.jpg)
Post by: worldwideweb3 on September 12, 2018, 12:35:08 am
Can we just accept that some cards are always going to be better than others? SoPa and SoFre are OP, regardless of which teams think they can use them. Doesn't mean they should be banned outright. We have market prices for a reason.
I like that JCJ is trying to show us SoPa can be used by just about anyone, some of those decks are pretty creative, but the point about that making it balanced for War simply doesn't hold water. If anything, that fact that any team can use such a powerful card makes it MORE centralising to the meta, not less. Making shards like this cheaper is a bad idea.
Even so, I'm still of the stance that no legitimate card should be banned from the entirety of War. Appropriate market pricings and better preparation from particularly vulnerable elements (looking at you :aether) will help.
Idk who can prepare better than a team containing 3 masters including 7 times master of aether (14 master titles total in that team), and 3 times war winner, 2 WC trophies between them amongst multiple other achievements.
Post by: MyNameIsJoey on September 12, 2018, 02:25:11 am
Post by: CactusKing on September 12, 2018, 08:37:49 am
Can we just accept that some cards are always going to be better than others? SoPa and SoFre are OP, regardless of which teams think they can use them. Doesn't mean they should be banned outright. We have market prices for a reason.
I like that JCJ is trying to show us SoPa can be used by just about anyone, some of those decks are pretty creative, but the point about that making it balanced for War simply doesn't hold water. If anything, that fact that any team can use such a powerful card makes it MORE centralising to the meta, not less. Making shards like this cheaper is a bad idea.
Even so, I'm still of the stance that no legitimate card should be banned from the entirety of War. Appropriate market pricings and better preparation from particularly vulnerable elements (looking at you :aether) will help.
Idk who can prepare better than a team containing 3 masters including 7 times master of aether (14 master titles total in that team), and 3 times war winner, 2 WC trophies between them amongst multiple other achievements.
I only hope you can. It would be unfortunate to realise halfway through war that you have no SoFre checks in the vault. I'm not doubting deuce, or any Aether soldier's pvp capabilities, just saying that if you know you're going to have to face certain decks, you should plan for them. Make the most of the cards you're given rather than complain about what your opponent has. I do not accept the notion that aether has no decks to beat air.
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on September 12, 2018, 08:47:26 am
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 12, 2018, 09:31:11 am
Quote from: CactusKing link=topic=66330.msg1280311#msg1280311
I do not accept the notion that aether has no decks to beat air.Neither did I. We worked long and hard, packing PU adrenastaves for the sole purpose of beating a single deck from a single element. I estimated its chances at 60%. It got the planned matchup and still lost. If you intend on not accepting this, then back it up with a deck that can win 75%+ of the time. Only then can it be considered a counter.
Post by: Mr Muffin on September 13, 2018, 11:34:52 pm
How many sofree and SoP did team life use?
None.
Post by: ddevans96 on October 10, 2018, 08:46:41 pm