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Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg453789#msg453789
« on: January 28, 2012, 08:51:39 am »
NAME:
Herring
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
1 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 1
TEXT:
When played, draw a card:
If it is a spell, play it for free.
If it is not a spell, place it on the top of your deck.
NAME:
Herring
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
1
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 1
TEXT:
When played, draw a card:
If it is a spell, play it for free.
If it is not a spell, place it on the top of your deck.
ART:
patchx94
Source: Royalty Free (http://www.sxc.hu/photo/202414)
IDEA:
patchx94
NOTES:
Clarifications:
"When played" means activated from the hand. This means that summoning copies produced by Fractal will trigger its effect, but copies produced by Mitosis or Parallel Universe will not.
The card drawn is the card on the top of your deck.
"Play it for free" means it is played (from hand) without its initial quanta cost. All other costs that stem from the card's effect (e.g. Drain all quanta) will still be taken.
If the spell does not target, e.g. Shard of Sacrifice, then it is played automatically.
If the spell targets, then the corresponding targeting layout will appear. If you chose to "cancel" the spell at this time, it will not be put back into your hand, but rather discarded.

Justification:
I believe it is balanced because, unless you both only have 1 herring in the deck and run only novas for quanta production, you will never be able to spam a slew of high-cost spells with herring because a single pillar or herring would force you to wait until next turn to continue the chain. Also note that you need multiple herrings in your hand to perform the chain, which is really only viable with Fractal, which is really only viable with pillars.
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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg453793#msg453793
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 08:59:21 am »
Very unique idea.  Good vanilla card that really fits into  :water quite well.

 Your clarification reminds me of cascade from magic the gathering

Offline jacker

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg453841#msg453841
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 11:01:53 am »
This+Fractal = WIN (in the right deck)

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455356#msg455356
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 05:53:24 pm »
Cost of Water spells
1|1, 2|1, 1|1, 7|6       :water + 1 card
Cost of Aether spells (Fractal is valuable)
2|1, 7|6, 4|3, 10|9     :aether + 1 card
Miracle: 12|15 :light

Herring is an alternate cost for spell cards.
It has only a X% chance to succeed even if it just uses pillars and spells (Nymph's Tear or Parallel Universe)
The average spell used in the deck costs Y :underworld+1card
Herring costs Z :water + 1 card for a X% chance at using an effect worth Y :underworld+1card on average.
Z+1 = X% (Y+1)

As a rough estimate (+/-2 casting cost) lets guess (X%,Y) = 50%,5
Z+1 = 50% (5+1) = 3
Z = 2 :water

Sidenote: Chains are not a concern. Each herring acts independently. Balance 1 and you balance them all.

Why Water?, Why Herring?
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Offline ralouf

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455358#msg455358
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 05:56:58 pm »
As a rough estimate (+/-2 casting cost) lets guess (X%,Y) = 50%,5
Z+1 = 50% (7+1) = 3
Z = 2 :water

If Z+1=(1/2)(7+1)=8/2=4 no ? so Z=3.

It looks very fun but can also be totally OP or totally useless.. Hence I can't vote but I really like this card it's very fun
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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455360#msg455360
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 06:00:47 pm »
@ralouf1
I had a typo
If Z+1=(1/2)(5+1)=8/2=3
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Offline PineappleTopic starter

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455367#msg455367
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 06:34:01 pm »
Cost of Water spells
1|1, 2|1, 1|1, 7|6       :water + 1 card
Cost of Aether spells (Fractal is valuable)
2|1, 7|6, 4|3, 10|9     :aether + 1 card
Miracle: 12|15 :light

Herring is an alternate cost for spell cards.
It has only a X% chance to succeed even if it just uses pillars and spells (Nymph's Tear or Parallel Universe)
The average spell used in the deck costs Y :underworld+1card
Herring costs Z :water + 1 card for a X% chance at using an effect worth Y :underworld+1card on average.
Z+1 = X% (Y+1)

As a rough estimate (+/-2 casting cost) lets guess (X%,Y) = 50%,5
Z+1 = 50% (5+1) = 3
Z = 2 :water

Sidenote: Chains are not a concern. Each herring acts independently. Balance 1 and you balance them all.
And, through those calculations, do you take into account that relying on Herrings for quanta generation can result in dead(ish) draws? For example, if you balance the deck's quanta to play all the spells, then you may be running with too much quanta. In those cases, Herring is just a faulty Precognition without the Seer ability, so it shouldn't cost as much (elemental affinities aside). If you balance the deck's quanta so that you rely on Herrings like they're Cremations, then you'll find that the average performance of the deck is lacking.


Why Water?, Why Herring?
Yeah, I actually don't have Justifications for Water. I could try to BS about water's property of flexibility, whether it be the shape-the-container property of liquid H2O or the ability to change states in a relatively small range of temperature, but that still doesn't make sense with the deck-drawing and the spell selectivity. Maybe that all Alchemy cards are Water cards, and so an auto-spell card must be a Water card rather than a Time or Entropy card?
I guess I have to rely on the fact that it's a Herring. I originally wanted to do Red Herring glares at Xeno, but that wouldn't make sense as a swimming water creature, so I dropped the Red. Anyways, why the mechanic fits Red Herring is because sometimes it brings to attention things, like putting a pillar in your hand, that aren't actually relevant, like being unable to play it. Plus, I don't actually know that many types of fish, so Herring it was.


It looks very fun but can also be totally OP or totally useless.. Hence I can't vote but I really like this card it's very fun
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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455372#msg455372
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 06:50:52 pm »
No I did not factor in the dead draw from drawing spell outside of herring possibility.

I do not know what element would fit and the name would come after the element was chosen.
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Offline Sevs

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455415#msg455415
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 09:12:12 pm »
This would definitely be a fun deck with SoP and fractal.
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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455422#msg455422
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 09:42:03 pm »
How about making it a fire card that still costs :water to play?

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455468#msg455468
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 12:18:50 am »
How about making it a fire card that still costs :water to play?
Um, cards cannot be in an element that differs from the quanta used in their casting cost.
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Offline PineappleTopic starter

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Re: Herring | Herring https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36084.msg455627#msg455627
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 01:31:16 pm »
How about making it a fire card that still costs :water to play?
Herrings shouldn't drown in a Flooding like a Fire creature. SoP is cool, too.

 

anything
blarg: