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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 02:48:51 pm

Title: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 02:48:51 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/XwzgjLL.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/YioUa8U.png?1)
NAME:
Heretic
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
3 :entropy
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 6
TEXT:
:fire :fire Immolate: Sacrifice Heretic to add double the amount of its stats to target creature.
NAME:
Zealot
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
2 :entropy
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 7
TEXT:
:fire :fire Immolate: Sacrifice Zealot to add double the amount of its stats to target creature.

ART:
Flayne
IDEA:
Flayne
NOTES:
The stats that are added are based on its *current* stats, not its original stats. ex: Zealot has been damaged by a spell and loses 4hp, now it has 3 hp.
Use immolate and add to a creature that had 2|3, now the selected creature has 2|9 and not 2|17.

- Cannot target a creature that is in stasis, frozen, immaterial, etc.
SERIES:

Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Zyardran on November 08, 2015, 02:50:58 pm
Interesting.
Why not make it fire in the first place?
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Treldon on November 08, 2015, 02:58:39 pm
Uhm...heretics are "normally" burnt by others, not themselves. Zealot fits more.

And why :entropy? The combo with Chaos Power is obvious, but that'd work just the same if it was :fire. And Immolate might not be a good ability name considering how Immolation does something totally different. Martyrdom perhaps, in keeping with the religious theme?

The effect itself is interesting.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Zyardran on November 08, 2015, 03:00:30 pm
Uhm...heretics are "normally" burnt by others, not themselves. Zealot fits more.

And why :entropy? The combo with Chaos Power is obvious, but that'd work just the same if it was :fire. And Immolate might not be a good ability name considering how Immolation does something totally different. Martyrdom perhaps, in keeping with the religious theme?

The effect itself is interesting.
:entropy is fine with me, I kinda think it fits tbh. I just wanna know why he chose? (Maybe another :entropy fan!)
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 03:03:02 pm
 
Interesting.
Why not make it fire in the first place?

Thank you, the intent was to create a card themed on entropy :entropy based on its thermodynamic properties. Entropy is a force that deals with many things which also include :fire heat distribution in the universe due to the increase in potential disorder.

So based on this, I thought about certain synergies it may have with fire and came up with a few ideas which include but are not limited to: mono fire with rage potion due to its high defense. Though now i say that i totally forgot that the upped version of it becomes -6 def, so gonna have to change the upped version now lol  :-X

otherwise it has great potential with rainbow decks that can utilize things like - blessing, acceleration, basilisk blood, gravity pull, etc.


Uhm...heretics are "normally" burnt by others, not themselves. Zealot fits more.

And why :entropy? The combo with Chaos Power is obvious, but that'd work just the same if it was :fire. And Immolate might not be a good ability name considering how Immolation does something totally different. Martyrdom perhaps, in keeping with the religious theme?

The effect itself is interesting.
well I was typing the answer to the first part from Discord's post.

as for the second part, i considered the immolate name, and thought, immolation = immolate, then i ran with it anyway simply because of the different spelling haha (though immolation becomes cremation, that is to consider as well) . I will consider to change it.
As you mentioned "being burnt by others" That is already taken care of by guess who.... YOU haha :P, since you are the one controlling the creatures and all.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Basman-1453 on November 08, 2015, 03:13:30 pm
The stats that are added are based on its *current* stats, not its original stats. ex: Zealot has been damaged by a spell and loses 4hp, now it has 2 hp.
Use immolate and add to a creature that had 2|3, now the selected creature has 2|5 and not 2|9.

Wait. When an injured Zealot at 0/2 Immolate itself for a 2/3 creature, shouldn't it be a 2/7 ( (2+(0x2)) / (3+(2x2)) ) instead of a 2/15 ( (2+(0x2)) / (3+(6x2)) )?

Uhm...heretics are "normally" burnt by others, not themselves. Zealot fits more.

And why :entropy? The combo with Chaos Power is obvious, but that'd work just the same if it was :fire. And Immolate might not be a good ability name considering how Immolation does something totally different. Martyrdom perhaps, in keeping with the religious theme?

The effect itself is interesting.

Actually, I find Entropy fitting nicely to the religious theme, particularly unupped. Y'know, the unorthodoxy.

As you mentioned "being burnt by others" That is already taken care of by guess who.... YOU haha :P, since you are the one controlling the creatures and all.

Oh, you XD
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Espithel on November 08, 2015, 03:18:52 pm
My own personal complaint about this card is that forcing it into :entropy :fire feels a little bit too restrictive.

There's also This card (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-1-crucible/enchanted-armor-enchanted-armor/) to look at, which is essentially the same card in an entirely different elemental pair. I prefer this one simply because it doesn't feel OP as balls, but I will say that I prefer armour's elements - it just feels... Weird in that combination. Sensical, but weird.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 03:29:06 pm
The stats that are added are based on its *current* stats, not its original stats. ex: Zealot has been damaged by a spell and loses 4hp, now it has 2 hp.
Use immolate and add to a creature that had 2|3, now the selected creature has 2|5 and not 2|9.

Wait. When an injured Zealot at 0/2 Immolate itself for a 2/3 creature, shouldn't it be a 2/7 ( (2+(0x2)) / (3+(2x2)) ) instead of a 2/15 ( (2+(0x2)) / (3+(6x2)) )?


whhhoooops! thank you for making that awful mistake clear, fixed :)
Yea its double its current stats, so injured 0|2 Zealot gives a total of 0|4 to target creature when immolated.
I said that just to make the potential of the card a bit clear. so If you infuse with rage elixir, it would now have 6/1 so immolate and it gives away 12/2 to target creature.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Espithel on November 08, 2015, 03:31:21 pm
What happens in a case of a zealot having, say, -10 | 5? Antimatter is treated more of a status than as a number.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 03:39:09 pm
What happens in a case of a zealot having, say, -10 | 5? Antimatter is treated more of a status than as a number.
Well I would assume that mathematically it would be very good to immolate it then lol since -10 x 2 is -20 respectively. Basically you get rid of it because it will heal your opponent lol.
However if programmers were to consider its previous number of 0, then it would simply give 0 x 2 = 0 since as you say, antimatter is a status and not a number, so the effect of immolating it would resume as normal.

However inverting 0 into negative is impossible since it has no positive figure to begin with.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Fippe94 on November 08, 2015, 03:41:20 pm
I disagree. AM isn't a status, it is definitely a number change. It's like saying Blessing is a status imo. Nothing can "heal" AM, like poison and momentum can be removed, and any further attack changes on AM is treated like AM is a number change.
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Basman-1453 on November 08, 2015, 03:45:00 pm
What happens in a case of a zealot having, say, -10 | 5? Antimatter is treated more of a status than as a number.
Well I would assume that mathematically it would be very good to immolate it then lol since -10 x 2 is -20 respectively. Basically you get rid of it because it will heal your opponent lol.

I don't think there's anything in your card's mechanic that prevents the Heretic/Zealot to pass those negative 'buffs' on an opposing creature, just as there's nothing in, say, a Virus's mechanics that prevents it to affect an allied creature.

In fact, it's a devious way to punish Antimatter-happy opponents: have the Heretic/Zealot Immolate itself and pass the Antimatter'd buff on an opposing creature so that the affected opposing creature heals you. :V
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: CleanOnion on November 08, 2015, 05:38:19 pm
Loving the art; how'd you do it?
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 07:06:03 pm
What happens in a case of a zealot having, say, -10 | 5? Antimatter is treated more of a status than as a number.
Well I would assume that mathematically it would be very good to immolate it then lol since -10 x 2 is -20 respectively. Basically you get rid of it because it will heal your opponent lol.

I don't think there's anything in your card's mechanic that prevents the Heretic/Zealot to pass those negative 'buffs' on an opposing creature, just as there's nothing in, say, a Virus's mechanics that prevents it to affect an allied creature.

In fact, it's a devious way to punish Antimatter-happy opponents: have the Heretic/Zealot Immolate itself and pass the Antimatter'd buff on an opposing creature so that the affected opposing creature heals you. :V

Oh indeed, of course. Either way immolating it before it starts healing the opponent in anyway possible is the best option. Of course it requires a target creature to do this.
such a scenario could be for example: Opponent is getting hurt being behind on creature production from a bad hand and do not have any creatures on the field, though they do have antimatter on their hand. I play my Zealot and buff it, only to wait for the next turn in order to use ability for my friendly creature.

Opponent sees an opportunity to use antimatter to invert Zealot's atk, casts, now my zealot is effectively useless and I would not dare immolate it for my friendly creature only to double the negative number (as by multiplying negative numbers by positive numbers always results in a higher negative number) meaning I keep healing him.

HOWEVER... Once he brings out a creature, all I have to do is use the ability on that creature and opponent starts healing me. So its a bit of a tight situation unless he uses quintessence on his creatures or perhaps cloak or something.

Damned Zealots and their shenaningans  ?_?

Loving the art; how'd you do it?

Why, thank you! :D I had an old drawing which was in black and white, so I used photo shop, colorized it with a fuchsia-pink back ground, colorized the black, darkened some parts (belly and arms) and added some small swirling-smoke tendrils to suggest its essence is burning away, cropped it to fit the card  and boom there you go.

:)

Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Treldon on November 08, 2015, 07:29:00 pm
Problem is with using Zealot against an AM happy opponent is that once you immolate your -10 Zealot to give opposing creature -20, they can then just AM their own creature to gain +20 ATK
Title: Re: Heretic | Zealot
Post by: Flayne on November 08, 2015, 10:18:40 pm
Problem is with using Zealot against an AM happy opponent is that once you immolate your -10 Zealot to give opposing creature -20, they can then just AM their own creature to gain +20 ATK

Exactly, while Zealot itself seems a bit strong when involving stat buffers (rage elixir, blessing, Acceleration, etc) it certainly has its counter play ( AntiMatter, unable to target creature due to frozen, stasis, rewind after it immolates, etc)

Of course the opponent can be smart and instead of AM'ing the Zealot immediately on buff, waits for you to immolate the Zealot onto its ally.

AMing a buffed Zealot would be less effective than AMing the creature that got buffed by it, assuming it immolates to an ally creature on field.

Scenario 1: Zealot has 6|1 from Rage elixir, buffs creature with 3|4, creature gets +12|+2, becomes 15|6, Gets AM'd by opponent, now becomes -15|6

vs

Scenario 2: Zealot has 6|1, gets AM'd (assuming you buffed Zealot straight away on play waiting to use its ability on next turn)
 now it has -6|1, immolates to opponent creature for counter play with 3|4, opponent creature gets -12|+2,
 becomes -9|6, Opponent AM's affected creature for counter-counter play, it is now 9|6

We must consider that the second scenario requires the use of 2 Anti-matters, vs 1st scenario which requires only one.

Of course, there is a third scenario if I am the one being Anti-Matter happy:

Say I am losing and have low hp and its my turn with a Zealot on field being ability ready, I buff it with Rage elixir and it becomes 6|1,
then I AM'd my own Zealot ( -6|1), now I immolate Zealot onto say an enemy creature with 2|2 (-12|+2), now enemy creature has  -10|4 and I have just made some more time for me, even if it is slight which would help me more than immolating on my own creature (assuming I am too behind for the damage from my creature to mean anything)


The use of Anti Matter on Zealot really depends on the situation, and honestly made the card more interesting as I described the scenario if I look at it from an outsiders perspective (disregarding the fact that it is my card idea haha)

(Please correct me if I have made any logical or mathematical errors)


blarg: