Post by: Tea is good on July 28, 2010, 08:29:44 pm
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)
The fate egg costs 3 to summon and 1 to activate. Many times you can get useless things from it, sometimes great things and still other times people kill it right off the bat. I know very few people that actually use it. WE recently had a fate egg deck competition. One of the more prevalent strategies was to mutate one's fate eggs right after summoning, not even hatching them. This was used because many people knew that they could die very easily against creature control or just turn into useless things that wouldn't help in the least.
I personally would like the cost reduced so that more people can afford such a fun and hopefully more useful card.
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd76600/Picture_2.png) (http://imageplay.net/)
Number crunch anyone ( % of creatures under 4 quanta u can get and % of creautres over 4 quanta u can get)
Post by: dragonhuman on July 28, 2010, 08:44:00 pm
Post by: smuglapse on July 30, 2010, 01:49:10 am
I think the best option is to introduce an egg generator card.
And as far as health increase, I think 4 would be enough--that takes it out of mass creature control range, but single spells (like Shockwave) can still destroy them.
Post by: twinsbuster on July 30, 2010, 02:04:01 am
6. Hatch into a superior mutant
Post by: bigbadbanana on July 30, 2010, 02:22:54 am
add:That wouldn't fit with :time at all.
6. Hatch into a superior mutant
Post by: jmdt on July 30, 2010, 03:39:50 am
Post by: jmizzle7 on July 30, 2010, 04:03:22 am
I have built some really fun, relatively successful decks around Fractal + Fate Egg, and I definitely agree that lowering the cost to 2 :time would be an adequate buff. I have a few interesting card ideas that would boost the potential of Fate Eggs quite nicely.
Post by: midg3333 on July 30, 2010, 11:43:58 am
Post by: Malduk on July 30, 2010, 04:14:34 pm
Fate Eggs would be quite interesting if they had a decent chance of spawning a Nymph (on semi regular basis). Tears suck anyway.
Post by: cookiepirate on August 02, 2010, 08:28:31 pm
this card is just LUCK
however i think reducing the cost to summon(my vote)would help since fate egg usually turns into low and medium attack creatures
Post by: karis on August 03, 2010, 02:06:47 am
Post by: Tea is good on August 03, 2010, 07:53:28 pm
Post by: cebra on August 03, 2010, 08:23:39 pm
Post by: smuglapse on August 03, 2010, 09:25:50 pm
I'm not adding mutations to the poll, but I don't know how to add more than the defualt amount of options. Brought to you by the B&N Nook(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd77725/options.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/)
Post by: Tea is good on August 04, 2010, 12:25:43 am
Post by: Ant-n-ero on August 06, 2010, 09:06:14 am
I agree you should have it so the it is intargetable, having my egg killed beofre it hatches is the most annoying thing ever (or having it lobo'd), but tbh, the oppenent HAS to have a chance to stop millionz of potential super cards appearing, so I don't think it should be immortal (besides, that's what quint is for)
+1/+1 kinda sucks tbh, but allows every hatch to do at least 1 (unupd) as even another FE will have then 1 attack, but i don't think it's worth it
I would most deffinately like to see Fate Egg REMOVED from the hatch list, technically it isn't a creature as it doesn't move/attack (although I'm sure people will disagree), I mean, you don't see ASH hatching out do you?!!! <--- please add this to poll (as well as revote option) "Fate Egg to be removed from Hatch list"
Post by: smuglapse on August 06, 2010, 09:12:57 am
"Fate Egg to be removed from Hatch list"I think the Hatch List is just the list of creature cards and is automatic. That's why you see it hatch into cards that have just came out in the trainer. I assume it would require a lot more coding to take out Fate Egg from the list. But it is a good idea if it could be implemented fairly easily. That PLUS one or two of the other buffs in the poll.
Post by: jmdt on August 06, 2010, 03:06:53 pm
I would most deffinately like to see Fate Egg REMOVED from the hatch list, technically it isn't a creature as it doesn't move/attack (although I'm sure people will disagree), I mean, you don't see ASH hatching out do you?!!! <--- please add this to poll (as well as revote option) "Fate Egg to be removed from Hatch list"I don't mind gettina a fate egg, that's part of the flavor of this card, however it needs to be cheaper and/or more survivable to really be effective.
Ideally 2 cost (or even 1, since you also have to pay 1 to activate) is my favorite solution.
Another idea I thought of is to make fate egg immortal until it hatches, playing fate egg to have it destroyed or lobo'd is frustrating. Since it has a shell, a higher amount of hp also makes sense to atleast correct 1 of these problems.
Post by: Xinef on August 10, 2010, 08:37:14 pm
That's why I voted for 4 hp. In terms of cost to effect it seems balanced, as 4 quanta for an average creature seems right (we'd have to calculate the average cost of a creature to know for sure), but the randomness means that in many cases you will be unable to use the abilities (unless you use novas/quantum towers), and you cannot prepare a combo in your deck because of the randomness. Add the fact it takes 1 turn to hatch and is easy to counter and it seems UP. People using it are usually doing it because of the fun aspect, not because of it's power. And it gives worse results than mutation on average...
So, first of all 4 hp to make it harder to counter, and only if that is not enough decrease the cost. No other changes necessary so that fractal fate egg is not too powerful. As for the fate egg hatching into itself it is indeed a flavor and if it irritates someone too much then maybe (just maybe) he is not worthy of the powerful Fate Egg!
Post by: Tea is good on August 12, 2010, 03:04:14 am
Another idea, time needs more creatures (never see fate egg in mono-time decks), aka make fate egg more accessible by lowering cost
Post by: ratcharmer on August 19, 2010, 04:52:40 am
Forest Scorpion could be useful, although not super strong.
Dune Scorpion & Deathstalker are useless unless buffed, and many fate egg decks don't carry buffs.
Voodoo Doll would be of very limited use (discouraging mass CC, but not much else) without other cards to support it.
Chimera . . . I'm not even sure if a fate egg can hatch into this, but if it could then this could quite easily ruin your whole setup.
Basically, when new creatures are added the relative power of Fate egg changes, and I think this latest patch nerfed fate egg pretty thoroughly.
Post by: Tea is good on August 25, 2010, 02:29:43 pm
Basically, when new creatures are added the relative power of Fate egg changes, and I think this latest patch nerfed fate egg pretty thoroughly.Exactly, i think the 2 cost would completely make up for it though.
Post by: jmdt on August 25, 2010, 08:37:01 pm
I agree a bunch of 0 attack critters does a big nerf to the fate egg. Also the more new critters, the less nymphs and ruby dragons you will get.Basically, when new creatures are added the relative power of Fate egg changes, and I think this latest patch nerfed fate egg pretty thoroughly.Exactly, i think the 2 cost would completely make up for it though.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on August 25, 2010, 10:37:34 pm
Immortal from start seems contraproductive for Fractal IMO.
Post by: EvaRia on August 30, 2010, 07:02:29 pm
Creatures targeted with reverse time when they have the Hatched status will turn back into a fate egg.
Assuming they didn't already use an ability, this means that it can rehatch again on the same turn (No summoning sickness.)
So with an eternity, you can keep reversing and rehatching the fate egg each turn until you get a creature that you like.
Post by: Xinef on September 01, 2010, 07:46:18 pm
And... how would you visibly mark this status? An egg symbol in the corner? :]
Post by: EvaRia on September 01, 2010, 07:57:03 pm
Post by: Szklarzified on September 07, 2010, 05:28:39 pm
Post by: 7wavemaster on September 10, 2010, 12:45:17 am
Post by: DeviousDragon98 on October 21, 2010, 10:05:15 am
Anyway, I was thinking that it can be made so a fate egg will hatch automatically after a certain number of turns. Time passes as turns go by :/
And I dont think it should be coming into play being immortal or anything. Its a egg, so shouldn't it be very fragile?
An egg is a egg, and I dont think it should take so much energy just to make one, so cutting the quanta cost would be reasonable.
How about if a creature is hatched from the fate egg's ability, it gains the "Hatched" Status.That would be really complicated, and zanz would probably make the game more simple than that
Creatures targeted with reverse time when they have the Hatched status will turn back into a fate egg.
Assuming they didn't already use an ability, this means that it can rehatch again on the same turn (No summoning sickness.)
So with an eternity, you can keep reversing and rehatching the fate egg each turn until you get a creature that you like.
Post by: EvaRia on October 21, 2010, 02:47:10 pm
It's not actually that complicated. When you mutate creatures, they gain the mutant status. If you TU or hatch a mutant, it generates another mutant that is slightly stronger, instead of a normal monster.How about if a creature is hatched from the fate egg's ability, it gains the "Hatched" Status.That would be really complicated, and zanz would probably make the game more simple than that
Creatures targeted with reverse time when they have the Hatched status will turn back into a fate egg.
Assuming they didn't already use an ability, this means that it can rehatch again on the same turn (No summoning sickness.)
So with an eternity, you can keep reversing and rehatching the fate egg each turn until you get a creature that you like.
This is just a similar suggestion with the egg.
It would just be similar to reverse timing a mummy, so if you reverse a hatched creature, it turns into a fate egg.
Post by: DeviousDragon98 on October 22, 2010, 06:19:22 am
Well are you sure such a long description could fit on the card?It's not actually that complicated. When you mutate creatures, they gain the mutant status. If you TU or hatch a mutant, it generates another mutant that is slightly stronger, instead of a normal monster.How about if a creature is hatched from the fate egg's ability, it gains the "Hatched" Status.That would be really complicated, and zanz would probably make the game more simple than that
Creatures targeted with reverse time when they have the Hatched status will turn back into a fate egg.
Assuming they didn't already use an ability, this means that it can rehatch again on the same turn (No summoning sickness.)
So with an eternity, you can keep reversing and rehatching the fate egg each turn until you get a creature that you like.
This is just a similar suggestion with the egg.
It would just be similar to reverse timing a mummy, so if you reverse a hatched creature, it turns into a fate egg.
Post by: Malignant on October 22, 2010, 07:23:15 am
Post by: Xrbeta on October 22, 2010, 07:45:14 pm
Post by: kurathedog on October 23, 2010, 01:22:57 am
Improve mutate, while being a two card combo, has 1 less cost, guarenteed ability, and up to +4/+4 on random ability. Oh, and did I mention GRABLOID WITH STEAL?
And TU mutant ftw.
Simple comparison: which one is harder, Destiny or Chaos lord?
Post by: glowing ice on October 23, 2010, 04:42:41 pm
Post by: ratcharmer on October 23, 2010, 05:12:30 pm
I sat down and crunched some numbers on this card and I think the results are relevant to this discussion:
On average when a fate egg hatches:
The quanta cost of the creature made is 5.09
The HP is 3.90
The attack is 3.41
There is a 17.3% chance of getting a rare creature, 14.8% of getting a nymph, 14.8% of getting a dragon.
46% of the time the creature produced is significantly more useful in a rainbow. 4% just slightly more useful in a rainbow.
67% of the time the creature will have a useful ability, 4% a minor ability (web etc)
5% of the time the resulting creature will be useless in a deck not designed for it.
(these are only for the non-upgraded version. I haven't done the math on the upgraded one. Obviously some of my numbers are estimates.)
So basically, in using a fate egg you're delaying your strategy by 1 turn and leaving your creature as an 0/1 Oty snack for 1 turn in order to save yourself a single quanta (on average).
Add to that the fact that it's nearly impossible to design a strategy around random creatures, and that they mess with your quanta use in a rainbow, and there's really no reason why anyone would want to use this card except to goof off.
Needs a buff, badly.
Post by: EvaRia on October 23, 2010, 05:19:57 pm
When targeted with a spell, becomes a random creature of that element?
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 23, 2010, 05:22:01 pm
How about:Then you have to waste a spell as well :(
When targeted with a spell, becomes a random creature of that element?
Even without the Fate Egg would I not trade a spell for a random creature of the same element.
Post by: Ant-n-ero on October 23, 2010, 05:34:59 pm
no, because then you can make a FE and Pand deck!How about:Then you have to waste a spell as well :(
When targeted with a spell, becomes a random creature of that element?
Even without the Fate Egg would I not trade a spell for a random creature of the same element.
Post by: ratcharmer on October 23, 2010, 05:42:05 pm
How about:This would also mean that your opponent couldn't cc your fate eggs with spells.
When targeted with a spell, becomes a random creature of that element?
Personally, I think the simplest solution is just cutting the cost to summon a fate egg. Not everything needs to be fancy and/or clever.
Post by: shinyarceus4 on November 03, 2010, 09:15:48 pm
Post by: Zeru on November 03, 2010, 10:30:50 pm
the problem is that it's only 0|1, a single hit of any kind will kill it, and lobotomize will render it unable to hatch. I vote for it to be IMMORTAL. ok?Immortality would be passed to the creature?
Post by: Ant-n-ero on November 03, 2010, 10:54:19 pm
imagine an already immortal Purple (or equally deadly nymph) or a dragon of some kind >_<
Post by: QuantumT on November 04, 2010, 12:23:00 am
What if you made it burrowed instead and it worked like graboids do?the problem is that it's only 0|1, a single hit of any kind will kill it, and lobotomize will render it unable to hatch. I vote for it to be IMMORTAL. ok?Immortality would be passed to the creature?
Post by: geekz_always_win on November 04, 2010, 12:44:25 am
So keep everything the same. Then, if hatched creature has no skill or an attack power of less than X (maybe 5 or something?) then a random skill is added to the creature. The skill costs :time :time
Post by: smuglapse on November 04, 2010, 12:55:28 am
How about this?I don't see a reason for that large of a change. 4 health and 2 :time to summon would be a good starting point. If an additional buff is needed 'hatch' could be made innate and the egg would hatch automatically after 1 turn.
So keep everything the same. Then, if hatched creature has no skill or an attack power of less than X (maybe 5 or something?) then a random skill is added to the creature. The skill costs :time :time
Post by: theloconate on November 04, 2010, 01:08:48 am
Post by: Demut on November 04, 2010, 03:04:20 am
but as it is, it has little value, and nothing can be done to make it useful.
Post by: Ant-n-ero on November 04, 2010, 07:45:07 am
I don't see a reason for that large of a change. 4 health and 2 :time to summon would be a good starting point. If an additional buff is needed 'hatch' could be made innate and the egg would hatch automatically after 1 turn.i like that idea :P
Post by: BC on November 05, 2010, 04:27:25 am
Post by: Ekki on November 05, 2010, 05:11:27 am
Fate chicken would be a great buff for the Fate egg
Post by: ratcharmer on December 20, 2010, 03:15:33 am
Crusader could be useful as a hatch, especially if you have :light quanta. The kitty will be pretty much useless in a fate egg deck though. All in all I think this next update is yet another nerf for fate egg.
Post by: MadBoat on December 27, 2010, 08:59:45 pm
a simple example:
40% Mid range beatstick (stone golem, graviton merc, etc)
25% weak beatstick (ash eater, dragonfly, etc)
20% Dragon or strong beatstick
5% non-Time creature with activated ability
5% Time creature with activated ability
1% animated weapon
1% Chimera
1% fate egg (lol)
1% upgraded fate egg(for unupped version), or instant win 300/300 creature or something (for upgraded version)
1% as above, but opponent gains control
Post by: Ekki on December 27, 2010, 11:44:05 pm
We could assign probabilities to cards that fate egg could hatch into.That would turn fate egg into a sort of entropy creature, and I don't like the idea of the 300|300 creature, even for a 1%
a simple example:
40% Mid range beatstick (stone golem, graviton merc, etc)
25% weak beatstick (ash eater, dragonfly, etc)
20% Dragon or strong beatstick
5% non-Time creature with activated ability
5% Time creature with activated ability
1% animated weapon
1% Chimera
1% fate egg (lol)
1% upgraded fate egg(for unupped version), or instant win 300/300 creature or something (for upgraded version)
1% as above, but opponent gains control
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 28, 2010, 12:23:51 am
watch out, everyone in PvP2, "Can Haz Moar Eggs" will be the next best deck ever!!!
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 28, 2010, 12:39:35 am
Post by: Ekki on December 28, 2010, 12:48:26 am
As stated before, this is best remediated by adding in a card that spawns Fate Eggs. Time Hatch Rushes FTW!^This.
Look at the link in this quote:
Maybe see this (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7667.36.html) :P
Fate chicken would be a great buff for the Fate egg
Post by: ratcharmer on January 07, 2011, 04:18:11 pm
It's interesting to note that the actual hatches don't seem to be completely random (some creatures hatch much more often).
*Edit: so after running the math, they actually do hatch exactly as my previous math predicts.
Post by: Ryli on January 07, 2011, 04:34:59 pm
300/300 creature...That'd make me famous. The only person to create a deck that will potentialy OTK gods on turn 2 in the future. ;D
watch out, everyone in PvP2, "Can Haz Moar Eggs" will be the next best deck ever!!!
Post by: ratcharmer on January 19, 2011, 05:51:25 am
So far no creatures have been announced, but one of the new cards (mitosis) can be used to create a fate egg generator. Does this mean fate eggs will start seeing real play again? No.
With mitosis the cost to create a "daughter" creature is the same as the cost to play one from your hand, and the spawner is another copy of the creature. So getting a 0/1 fate egg spawner will cost you 2 cards 3 :time and however many :life mitosis ends up costing. Said spawner would then be 0/1 and create a fate egg for 3 :time.
Now lets see if a fate egg is really worth 3 :time.
Here's the stats on fate egg hatches:
unupped
Average attack: 3.37
Average HP: 4.05
Average cost: 4.95
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*:47%
upgraded:
Average attack: 4.28
Average HP: 4.83
Average cost: 5.27
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*: 52%
Given those stats I really think you could cut the cost all the way down to 1 :time and boost the HP of fate egg without making it unbalanced. Just do a side-by-side comparison with graboid if you're wondering why.
Given that, is fate egg a good target for mitosis? Certainly not.
It's too fragile at 1 hp and using mitosis on a creature with an ability means you lose that ability. But most of all, fate egg is extremely cost inefficient. the average attack/hp of a hatched creature are just over 3/4 and you've spent 4 :time to get that creature, which first spent 1 turn as a 0/1.
*: I defined "useful" as a creature that would either cost 5 or more quanta to summon or is rare. If the creature hatched costs 4 or less and is not rare, then it would have been better to have played that creature directly rather than playing a fate egg and hatching it into said creature.
Realistically I question whether or not creatures up to 8 cost are really worth the delay & extra vulnerability to cc, plus the difficulties in balancing quanta for a random creature. But as long as there was any measurable benefit to using the fate egg I considered the creature "useful".
Post by: OldTrees on January 19, 2011, 06:04:05 am
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 :time]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 :time]
I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 :time|7 :time but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 :time|5 :time
However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.
On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.
Post by: ratcharmer on January 19, 2011, 08:23:47 am
I would be fine with Fate Egg if the average value of the creatures created were slightly greater than 4 :time|5.5 :time respectively.You aren't accounting for the 1 turn delay incurred when you use fate eggs to get creatures, and for the upped version you aren't taking into account that you're using up an upgraded card to get an upgraded card, so there shouldn't be a 1.5x multiplier there.
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 :time]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 :time]
I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 :time|7 :time but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 :time|5 :time
However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.
On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.
At least if I'm reading that right . . . that post really isn't all that clear.
And no, fate egg is not useful. There are NO competitive decks out there that use this card.
A while back there was a tourney where everyone had to use this card. One of the most successful strategies was to mutate or immolate the eggs as soon as they were played, because otherwise they were just too vulnerable to cc, and had too little payout when they did hatch.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on January 19, 2011, 09:05:24 am
Post by: OldTrees on January 19, 2011, 01:53:10 pm
The one turn delay is why it should on average produce a creature more valuable than the 4|4+1.5 quanta mark which is the cost of Fate Egg.I would be fine with Fate Egg if the average value of the creatures created were slightly greater than 4 :time|5.5 :time respectively.You aren't accounting for the 1 turn delay incurred when you use fate eggs to get creatures, and for the upped version you aren't taking into account that you're using up an upgraded card to get an upgraded card, so there shouldn't be a 1.5x multiplier there.
Average value for a card unupped is equal to its cost [4.95->~5 :time]
Average value for a card upgraded is equal to its cost +1.5(1-2) [5.27->~7 :time]
I think Fate Egg is fine since its spawn is worth 5 :time|7 :time but is uncontrolled which decreases the value of fate egg back down to 3 :time|5 :time
However the theory I use to derive the above opinion (located in my sig) would not care if Fate Egg's hp were changed as long as it remained between 1 and 5 inclusive.
On average Fate Egg is useful. No significant buff needed.
In this case you Data suggests that the average creature summoned is valued at the 4.95|5.27+1.5 quanta mark which is greater than the quanta cost of Fate Egg by about 1quanta.
Now the question is how much of a cost reduction from the average value does 1 turn delay and the randomness deserve? (I think they net a -1 quanta decrease but you may disagree. If you disagree then the above valuations would still be useful to your argument. The polls above seem to value the debuff at -2 quanta.)
As for the competitive deck argument and the example of Fallen Elf:
1) Fallen Elf is Fate Egg on a stick. Sticks are used more than 1time effects and are less prone to initial bad luck.
2) The current metagame influences which decks are competitive. The metagame is largely comprised of non balance preferences like fast games, ease of use and predictability.
Post by: ratcharmer on January 19, 2011, 05:15:02 pm
The one turn delay is why it should on average produce a creature more valuable than the 4|4+1.5 quanta mark which is the cost of Fate Egg.A single quanta is nowhere near worth a full turn delay. With grabiod a full turn delay is valued at 4 quanta, and the graboid itself is a worthwhile creature (2/3 untargetable for 3 -> much better damage/cost ratio than immortal, and it absolutely CANNOT be cc'd before it evolves).
In this case you Data suggests that the average creature summoned is valued at the 4.95|5.27+1.5 quanta mark which is greater than the quanta cost of Fate Egg by about 1quanta.
Now the question is how much of a cost reduction from the average value does 1 turn delay and the randomness deserve? (I think they net a -1 quanta decrease but you may disagree. If you disagree then the above valuations would still be useful to your argument. The polls above seem to value the debuff at -2 quanta.)
Now, two points can be made against giving the delay a value of 4 quanta:
1) Graboid is overpowered. Some people argue this point, but I think this one is valid.
2) Graboid calls for a duo. I don't think this one is valid (explained below)
Yes, graboid decks need quanta from two elements, but the demand for :time quanta is so small it's easily met by the mark alone, and then there's usually extra. But more than that graboid may require two elements, but fate egg requires quanta from all 12 elements. Yes, you can hatch it with just :time but the odds of getting a creature you can use are pretty slim.
Think about how many nymphs would be useful in a mono :time deck.
Now for two more points for fate egg:
1) It's unreliable. People don't like using fate eggs for the same reason they don't like decks that are prone to bad draws.
2) Many creatures are simply useless in decks that aren't designed around them. Take :death nymph for example. You might be able to get a little extra damage in by turning a weak hatch into cells, but over the course of the average 10 turn game that's not going to deal your opponent very much damage, and half the shields in the game will utterly destroy you. And a nymph is considered a fan-freaking-tastic hatch, nevermind dune scorps, cats, vultures etc.
As to the poll:
Yes the option currently leading the poll values the delay at 2 quanta. Heck, my vote is in there. I voted for that option because there is no option to value it more
Quote
As for the competitive deck argument and the example of Fallen Elf:1) NO. Firstly, it is my understanding that in the competition the mutation spell was used, not Elf/Druid. The reason the spell was used is that it could be played as soon as the egg was, bypassing the 1 turn delay. Second, mutation and hatch are NOT equivalent. When not upgraded a mutation fairly reliably gives a 5/5 abomination, when upgraded (or on the odd chance unupped makes a mutant), it is the equivalent to hatch+chaos power and then randomizing the ability (including such possibilities as steal, destroy and deja vu). Yet fallen druid is not breaking the game right now.
1) Fallen Elf is Fate Egg on a stick. Sticks are used more than 1time effects and are less prone to initial bad luck.
2) The current metagame influences which decks are competitive. The metagame is largely comprised of non balance preferences like fast games, ease of use and predictability.
2) Deck speed (outside of how it affects win% -> all other things being equal the deck that deals 100 damage first wins) is mostly a factor in grinding decks, not tournament play. Also, predictability and ease of use both also affect deck balance.
If it was up to me I would reduce the summon cost to 1 :time (giving the 1 turn delay a value of ~3) and increase the hp to 2 (barely a measurable change). This leaves it worse then graboid in several ways (easier to cc, deals no damage prior to hatching, less reliable). But still makes it a unique and viable tactic IMO.
Post by: Gwenyvier on January 21, 2011, 09:21:30 pm
While I do like the card, chaos and luck are amazingly fun, I don't use it. I was using a Liquid Antimatter deck against Destiny. I lost, not because he got out a bunch of super strong creatures, but because his eggs kept hatching into such weaklings they weren't worth comboing (Yay! Brimstone Eater...). I do understand that the one turn wait is necessary, but it makes the creature incredibly vulnerable. Mutation is a much more reliable way of getting a random creature... with possible unobtainable skills.
Post by: ratcharmer on January 21, 2011, 10:44:47 pm
this card could be good in combination with mitosis however...I went over this a post or two before yours, I really think mitosis with fate egg is worse than mitosis with pretty much anything else.
Try it in the trainer. If you can get a workable deck with this let me know. I can't.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on January 22, 2011, 02:25:11 am
i meant good in a fun sense...this card could be good in combination with mitosis however...I went over this a post or two before yours, I really think mitosis with fate egg is worse than mitosis with pretty much anything else.
Try it in the trainer. If you can get a workable deck with this let me know. I can't.
tho if i get a working deck, i will let u know
Post by: Tea is good on February 08, 2011, 07:44:41 pm
Post by: Chaotic Elitist on February 09, 2011, 02:58:11 pm
Aside from that possibility, I like the buff of the creature that it hatches gaining one/one. It would make it far more useful. for four time quanta, I want a creature that's going to be able to do at least a damage, and stay on the field more than a turn. [ Devourer, spark respectively. ]
Post by: ratcharmer on February 20, 2011, 10:48:34 pm
The status effects . . . could work, but it feels more like an :entropy ability IMO.
For anyone still debating if this card is UP or not, here's a comparison that might shed some light on the subject:
Graviton Mercenary
Grav merc is one of the cards most commonly listed in "needs a buff" discussions. In the "Which cards are underpowered?" thread it was one of the higher ranked cards. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17620.0.html
(poll is a little old, but the point still stands)
Just feel that I should point out that the average stats for a fate egg hatch are pretty comparable to grav merc (~3.3 attack, 4 hp for fate egg, 3 attack and 5 hp for graviton merc) and it costs the same (3 :time to summon, 1 :time to hatch). On top of that it spends 1 turn as a 0/1 oty snack for at least a turn before it can do anything at all.
Granted, Fate egg might hatch useful abilities, but I feel that the unreliability of fate egg more than makes up for this. Some abilities might be powerful, but the vast majority of the abilities in the game are useful primarily in a deck that's designed to use them. Think of it this way: Imagine a deck consisting of 10 quantum pillars and 20 creatures picked entirely at random. Is that going to be a strong competitive deck? No, it isn't. But that's pretty much what fate egg is doing to your strategy. On top of that, it does it inefficiently.
I can't stress this enough; I cannot find any remotely competitive deck that uses even a single copy of this card. It needs a rainbow to work, but there are far better things to do with :time in a rainbow than waste it on the single least efficient creature in the game.
I HAVE seen competitive decks that use pre-buff skeleton, but none that use fate egg.
Why isn't there more call for this card to be buffed? I mostly attribute it to two causes:
1) The RNG hides how weak it is. Since it turns into a random creature most people have no idea what the average stats of the creature hatched are, and frequently assume that they must be high enough to justify the cost of the card. Losing when trying to use this card is often associated more to bad luck than the card being UP.
2) It still sees use. Zanz and many others frequently refer to card usage statistics when determining which cards need buffs, and while fate egg isn't one of the most used cards, it isn't one of the least either. This is because many people don't realize how weak it is (see above) and also because it IS seen frequently in "messing around" decks that aren't designed to be competitive, but they're fun.
Think about that for a minute. The card is utterly useless for actually winning, but people are using it anyway because it's fun. I think we're doing ourselves a disservice by not buffing this card.
Sorry for long post, I know this was a bit of a rant.
*edit* March 24, 2011:
I just spent a good long time digging through decks posted to try and find serious decks that use this card. Here's what I found:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4960.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22308.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1361.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18500.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22521.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16492.msg225146#msg225146
The first two list themselves as anti-FG decks, but I can't get either one to work in trainer. The creator of one of them states that fate eggs were probably a poor creature choice.
The remaining four list themselves as fun/messing around decks. One is actually in the fun deck archive.
Of the decks I found (and I looked far enough back that I found posts about the "upcoming sundial nerf") the immortal egg-layer is the closest thing to a real fate egg deck that I've found. In testing it almost worked. I actually did beat Lionheart with it once, but it was through deckout. The only thing I used fate egg for was a target for eternity to keep myself from decking out.
None of them are workable decks either for grinding AI or PvP
Post by: Xenocidius on August 05, 2011, 01:39:01 pm
It seems to be a general consensus that Fate Egg is painfully weak. The creatures it generates are often weak, and it can easily be killed or lobotomized before it can even hatch.
It could be buffed by increasing health, decreasing cost or making it enter burrowed (like Graboid).
Post by: SnoWeb on August 05, 2011, 01:42:37 pm
Post by: thekillergames on August 05, 2011, 01:43:08 pm
Post by: n00b on August 05, 2011, 01:45:36 pm
Post by: Xenocidius on August 05, 2011, 01:46:35 pm
please, add an option 'no buff needed'"Fine as is"
It could enter as immaterial, but then again, that kind of is the same as BurrowedExactly the same, and less fitting (eggs are often buried).
what if it hatched mutants?I like. I shall add to the poll.
Post by: Pineapple on August 05, 2011, 01:48:22 pm
First turn: 0|1
Second turn: 4|X
Compare it with Lycanthrope:
First turn: 1|1
Second turn: 6|6
Lycanthrope + ability costs 5-1(duo) quanta for 6|6 second turn, therefore, Fate Egg should cost no more than 3 for 4|X second turn.
what if it hatched mutants?Meh, then it'd overshadow mutation and would probably require a duo ability cost and a cost increase.
Post by: EmeraldTiger on August 05, 2011, 02:23:56 pm
Post by: Nemo on August 05, 2011, 02:42:31 pm
I voted on 2 summon cost, but that was before the mutant option :P
Post by: pie on August 05, 2011, 02:57:07 pm
Here's another idea ( indirect buff ) ; A new (
Post by: Siweisun on August 05, 2011, 05:46:39 pm
Post by: RootRanger on August 05, 2011, 06:19:47 pm
Does anyone really want Elements to involve even more RNG? A buff to Fate Egg encourages it to be used more, and that just means the RNG plays a bigger role. I want Fate Egg to stay as a fun card instead of a serious, competitive card.
Post by: Tom Bombadil on August 05, 2011, 06:29:58 pm
It is clear that it needs a buff, since imo is one of the most unreliable creature in the game, but not such a big buff like make it able to generate a mutant...
Post by: Pineapple on August 05, 2011, 09:17:58 pm
Actually, I'm pretty sure that dragons and nymphs have the highest chance of hatching, so no buff.Even with that, its average damage per hatch is around 4.
I think that making it enter burrowed wouldn't solve the problem of it having a non-existent niche in the meta-game, but would unnecessarily buff it in the wrong direction. In addition, it being a vulnerable, easy-to-crack egg is more thematic than it being invulnerable because some chicken buried it and you can't dig itout.
Post by: Ashebrethafe on August 06, 2011, 02:12:12 am
Post by: Toxx on August 14, 2011, 10:01:42 am
Post by: Naesala on August 14, 2011, 07:31:59 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on August 14, 2011, 08:58:13 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on August 24, 2011, 11:28:28 am
First, the creatures and ability produced by mutation are better. Second, mutation is an entropy card and entropy also as access to SN and Nova. Third, mutation exist as an ability and as a spell. All this allows you to make decks centred on mutation and/or to integrate some mutation on a classical entropy deck. Fourth in combo with Maxwell it is an efficient CC.
The problem of fate egg is that it is (a) slower, (b) give less good abilities than mutation (c) is not combinable to give CC and (d) requires random quanta.
To remedy that I though first that it would be nice to make mutant out of fate eggs. The problem is that it doesn't make sense. A better solution would be to spawn creatures which would most likely be usable by the time player. I made an example which generate a Fate Spider (having a random timely ability). Click on the GIF for details:
| (http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/fate_e10.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30235.0.html) | (http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/fate_s10.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30235.0.html) | (http://i.picasion.com/pic43/bc4a9346df1e69f8f4aefa6f690e20c6.gif) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30235.0.html) |
Post by: Aves on August 24, 2011, 12:11:46 pm
Post by: Naesala on August 24, 2011, 12:31:10 pm
Post by: RootRanger on August 24, 2011, 11:17:43 pm
Why does mutation gives fun deck and efficient deck whereas Fate egg give crap?Half the time it produces an Abomination, which isn't a very strong creature: 5 attack and no ability.
First, the creatures and ability produced by mutation are better.
40% of the time it produces a mutant, which has, on average, only slightly better stats than the average creature. Its ability is often a lot worse than some of the creatures a Mutation can produce. 10% of the time it kills the creature, which just wastes the mutation, fodder, and quanta.
Second, mutation is an entropy card and entropy also as access to SN and Nova.A Fate Egg deck can easily be used with SN and Nova, even if they are in a different Element. There's no rule in Elements that says mono decks must always be used.
Third, mutation exist as an ability and as a spell. All this allows you to make decks centred on mutation and/or to integrate some mutation on a classical entropy deck.Fate Eggs can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation. Spells aren't any easier to add into a deck just because they are spells. Mutation is actually harder to add into a deck, because you need fodder for it. Fate Egg can stand alone.
Fourth in combo with Maxwell it is an efficient CC.It's not efficient at all: you're using two cards just to handle one enemy creature. Using Mutation on your opponent's creature is almost always a bad idea if your only CC is Maxwell's Demon. Mutation just isn't as good of a CC cards as other options.
The problem of fate egg is that it is (a) slower, (b) give less good abilities than mutation (c) is not combinable to give CC and (d) requires random quanta.a) Fate Egg is only 1 card. Mutation is 2: the actual spell, and fodder. Fate Egg has a one turn delay, but it doesn't require a two-card combo to pull off.
b) Yes, but keep in mind that Fate Egg is only 1 card; Mutation is 2. Since they have close costs, Mutation should be a little more powerful.
c) And neither is Mutation.
d) Yep, and so does Mutation.
Fate Egg is just as powerful as Mutation is, which makes sense because they both rely on roughly the same amount of luck.
Also, people seem to be missing this.
It's true that the Fate Egg is a card of below-average strength, but I don't think it should be buffed.
Does anyone really want Elements to involve even more RNG? A buff to Fate Egg encourages it to be used more, and that just means the RNG plays a bigger role. I want Fate Egg to stay as a fun card instead of a serious, competitive card.
Post by: Hyroen on August 25, 2011, 03:41:28 am
New thoughts posted HERE (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29498.msg411702#msg411702).
Post by: ratcharmer on August 25, 2011, 04:08:16 am
Actually, I'm pretty sure that dragons and nymphs have the highest chance of hatching, so no buff.Untrue. All creatures on the hatch list have an even chance of hatching. I've tested it.
The average attack on an UPGRADED fate egg is around 4. For unuppgraded it's actually closer to 3.
Here's the stats on fate egg hatches:
unupped
Average attack: 3.37
Average HP: 4.05
Average cost: 4.95
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*:47%
upgraded:
Average attack: 4.28
Average HP: 4.83
Average cost: 5.27
Chances of getting a dragon: 15%
Chances of getting a nymph: 15%
Chances of getting something useful*: 52%
Given those stats I really think you could cut the cost all the way down to 1 :time and boost the HP of fate egg without making it unbalanced. Just do a side-by-side comparison with graboid if you're wondering why. I'll be happy with just a cost reduction though.
*:I defined a "useful" hatch as one wherein either a) the creature hatched cost at least 5 quanta OR was a rare creature.
My stats might be a little old now--I think Vanadium warden might have been introduced after I tested these, but that could only bring average attack down even further.
The average stats for a post-hatch fate egg are about the same as graviton merc (3.3 attack 4 hp paid 4 :time to get it for the egg versus 3 attack 5 hp 4 :gravity for the merc) but the egg spends a full turn as an 0/1 oty snack first.
Quote
Fate Egg is just as powerful as Mutation is, which makes sense because they both rely on roughly the same amount of luck.NO.
-There are NO competitive PvP decks out there that use fate egg
-There are NO effective grinding decks that use fate egg
-There are NO effective anti-FG decks that use fate egg
-There are all of these things using mutation/fallen elf
Quote
It's true that the Fate Egg is a card of below-average strength, but I don't think it should be buffed.So . . . your argument is that anything that involves the RNG should be severely UP by default? ???
Does anyone really want Elements to involve even more RNG? A buff to Fate Egg encourages it to be used more, and that just means the RNG plays a bigger role. I want Fate Egg to stay as a fun card instead of a serious, competitive card.
Post by: Xenocidius on August 25, 2011, 05:59:05 am
Recent thoughts are saying this: Drop casting cost to 1 :time and skill cost should be changed to 1 :entropy.But why would the skill 'hatch' cost :entropy? An egg requires time to hatch, therefore thematically :time is a better choice.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 25, 2011, 06:21:01 am
Fourth in combo with Maxwell it is an efficient CC.
It's not efficient at all: you're using two cards just to handle one enemy creature. Using Mutation on your opponent's creature is almost always a bad idea if your only CC is Maxwell's Demon. Mutation just isn't as good of a CC cards as other options.FYI, This deck is an excellent deck. It uses Maxwell as a main CC. The druid is here to convert any creature non-killable by Maxwell into one.
Code: [Select]
500 500 6ts 6ts 6ts 6ts 6tt 6tt 6tt 6tt 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 7ai 7ai 7ak 7al 7an 7an 7an 7an 7anThis is just the illustration of a twisted use of mutation. The more of these side use a card has the more versatile it is and the better it is. Fate egg does not have that.First, the creatures and ability produced by mutation are better.
Half the time it produces an Abomination, which isn't a very strong creature: 5 attack and no ability.First, you forgot improve mutation which gives 100% mutant and then, you also forgot that mutation can give creatures with steal, with high HP and devour or with high atk and guard etc ... These impossile creature might save you the game. The greatest effect of mutation is simply unachievable with eggs. That is why in my idea above, I tried to put some mutation possibilities (in small proportion and in a more controlled way because it is a card time) .
40% of the time it produces a mutant, which has, on average, only slightly better stats than the average creature. Its ability is often a lot worse than some of the creatures a Mutation can produce. 10% of the time it kills the creature, which just wastes the mutation, fodder, and quanta.
A Fate Egg deck can easily be used with SN and Nova, even if they are in a different Element. There's no rule in Elements that says mono decks must always be used.This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.
Fate Eggs can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation. Spells aren't any easier to add into a deck just because they are spells. Mutation is actually harder to add into a deck, because you need fodder for it. Fate Egg can stand alone.I am very interested. Please show me an example where the use of the fate egg worth it.
Post by: RootRanger on August 25, 2011, 09:41:33 pm
NO.There are some decks that use Fallen Elf, but I haven't seen a good deck that uses the individual card Mutation, which is more RNG-dependant than Fallen Elf because Mutation can only be used once.
-There are NO competitive PvP decks out there that use fate egg
-There are NO effective grinding decks that use fate egg
-There are NO effective anti-FG decks that use fate egg
-There are all of these things using mutation/fallen elf
So . . . your argument is that anything that involves the RNG should be severely UP by default? ???Only if it completely depends on the RNG. There shouldn't be incentive to make the RNG a huge factor in Elements. Fate Egg should stay as a non-serious card.
FYI, This deck is an excellent deck. It uses Maxwell as a main CC. The druid is here to convert any creature non-killable by Maxwell into one.That deck uses Fallen Druid. Did you ever mention Fallen Druid in your original post in this thread? No.Code: [Select]500 500 6ts 6ts 6ts 6ts 6tt 6tt 6tt 6tt 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 7ai 7ai 7ak 7al 7an 7an 7an 7an 7anThis is just the illustration of a twisted use of mutation. The more of these side use a card has the more versatile it is and the better it is. Fate egg does not have that.
I was arguing that the actual card Mutation is just as weak as Fate Egg.
If there was something that could repeatedly spawn Fate Eggs, just like Fallen Druid can repeatedly cast mutations, then the Fate Egg spawner should be usable in a deck, since it doesn't depend on the RNG as much as the individual Fate Egg. By producing more Fate Eggs, but for a higher cost, the luck is more likely to average out. But just like the standalone Mutation card, Fate Egg should not be as strong as the average card.
First, you forgot improve mutation which gives 100% mutant and then, you also forgot that mutation can give creatures with steal, with high HP and devour or with high atk and guard etc ... These impossile creature might save you the game. The greatest effect of mutation is simply unachievable with eggs. That is why in my idea above, I tried to put some mutation possibilities (in small proportion and in a more controlled way because it is a card time) .Sure, and it can also produce a 1-attack creature with Burrow.
There are too many bad combinations for Improved Mutation, as a spell, to be a useful card. You'll need 2 card slots and 1 quanta just for one creature. Even if you get an above-average combination, you've still spent a lot of deck space.
This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.Being worse in a mono deck is irrelevant to card balance with the current deckbuilding ruleset.
Fate Egg can also fit into a SN rainbow easily.
I never said Fate Egg could be worth adding into a deck that wants to be used in a competitive environment without relying on RNG. I said that it can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation, which I don't think a deck can be based around.Fate Eggs can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation. Spells aren't any easier to add into a deck just because they are spells. Mutation is actually harder to add into a deck, because you need fodder for it. Fate Egg can stand alone.I am very interested. Please show me an example where the use of the fate egg worth it.
To summarize:
Fate Egg and Mutation are both supposed to be weaker than the average cards because they rely heavily on the RNG. Making them stronger would caused the RNG to have a bigger role in Elements. Fallen Elf can be a useful card, but that is because it does not rely on RNG as much as Mutation, since Fallen Elf can mutate many creatures for a lower cost; it creates a larger sample. With a larger sample, the RNG has a smaller effect. If there was something that could spawn Fate Eggs, but for a high price, then it could be a usable card without increasing the RNG's importance more than necessary.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 26, 2011, 02:27:45 pm
I was arguing that the actual card Mutation is just as weak as Fate Egg.I disagree strongly:
- Mutation|Improved Mutation cost 2 :entropy|3 :entropy, 2 cards on 1 turn - the fodder is not in a weakness state before it becomes the new creature or delay the mutation and overcome the summoning sickness.
Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg cost 4 :time|4 :time, 1 card on 2 turns - the egg goes always through a weakness (1|1) state. - Mutation|Improved Mutation can be combined with Fallen Elf|Druid for repeatable mutation and better/more consistent decks.
Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not. - Both Mutation|Improved Mutation and Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg generate random creature among the complete list of creatures in element. However, only those made by Mutation|Improved Mutation are buffed (up to +4|+4 I think). Note that the bonus increase with PU|TU.
- Mutation|Improved Mutation exist as a spell (no counter) and as an ability (repeatable). Mutation has a different behaviour than Improved Mutation. Mutation risks the death and is therefore a possible CC and costs less. All in all the scope of possibilities is a lot larger with Mutation|Improved Mutation than with Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg.
- Mutation|Improved Mutation can generate creatures with steal or destroy. Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.
There are some decks that use Fallen Elf, but I haven't seen a good deck that uses the individual card Mutation, which is more RNG-dependant than Fallen Elf because Mutation can only be used once.Here again you never tried it. If you had you would know that improved mutation is also a fun card: example of nice fun deck - Twin Mutant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14013.0.html).
With the Fallen deck I gave above, this is the second efficient and fun deck using improved mutation either in spell or in ability form. These two example demonstrate well the versatility and the fun side of mutation.
You say that Fate Egg is as good as this. I kindly request an example ...
This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.
Being worse in a mono deck is irrelevant to card balance with the current deckbuilding ruleset.Twin mutant above is a duo as well as the Adrenatropy :life/ :entropy deck. I have never seen something similar half as good with fate egg.
Fate Egg can also fit into a SN rainbow easily.
To summarize:I think I have shown that Fate Egg is way weaker than Mutation|Improved Mutation|Fallen Elf|Fallen Druid. I don't think that the solution is to make it stronger. A change in the stats would not make the card more playable. The problem lies in the whole mechanic IMO.
Fate Egg and Mutation are both supposed to be weaker than the average cards because they rely heavily on the RNG. Making them stronger would caused the RNG to have a bigger role in Elements. Fallen Elf can be a useful card, but that is because it does not rely on RNG as much as Mutation, since Fallen Elf can mutate many creatures for a lower cost; it creates a larger sample. With a larger sample, the RNG has a smaller effect. If there was something that could spawn Fate Eggs, but for a high price, then it could be a usable card without increasing the RNG's importance more than necessary.
I think that the solution is to make it less random. My card suggestion above goes in that direction. It would make sense to have a card with the same average impact (same average stats and usefulness of the skill) but with a less large number of possibilities. It would be more controllable and then playable. Remember it has to fit the theme and to be adaptable as much as possible with the other cards of the element. My idea is also to reduce the RNG impact by rewinding the spawn creature into a new egg. Increase the synergy with RT would naturally make it better. I proposed to make a fix creature (the fate spider) but a spawn symbol on the new creature would render that possible too.
Post by: Hyroen on August 26, 2011, 04:39:06 pm
:time : "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!
I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 :time.
Post by: Xenocidius on August 26, 2011, 11:19:23 pm
If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns intoIt's a good idea, and the coding infrastructure is already there as well. Although then it's hardly fate ...
:time : "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!
I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 :time.
Post by: RootRanger on August 27, 2011, 12:12:25 am
I disagree strongly:The average mutant is stronger than the average hatched creature. But that's fair, because Fate Egg uses up only 1 card slot, while mutation requires fodder. The one-turn delay, extra quanta cost, and average weaker creature is a fair price to pay for the doubled card slot efficiency.
- Mutation|Improved Mutation cost 2 :entropy|3 :entropy, 2 cards on 1 turn - the fodder is not in a weakness state before it becomes the new creature or delay the mutation and overcome the summoning sickness.
Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg cost 4 :time|4 :time, 1 card on 2 turns - the egg goes always through a weakness (1|1) state.- Mutation|Improved Mutation can be combined with Fallen Elf|Druid for repeatable mutation and better/more consistent decks.
Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.- Both Mutation|Improved Mutation and Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg generate random creature among the complete list of creatures in element. However, only those made by Mutation|Improved Mutation are buffed (up to +4|+4 I think). Note that the bonus increase with PU|TU.
- Mutation|Improved Mutation exist as a spell (no counter) and as an ability (repeatable). Mutation has a different behaviour than Improved Mutation. Mutation risks the death and is therefore a possible CC and costs less. All in all the scope of possibilities is a lot larger with Mutation|Improved Mutation than with Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg.
- Mutation|Improved Mutation can generate creatures with steal or destroy. Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.
While mutation has synergy with TU, but Fate Egg can be Fractaled. Mutants are difficult to Fractal.
Here again you never tried it. If you had you would know that improved mutation is also a fun card: example of nice fun deck - Twin Mutant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14013.0.html).I'm aware of Twin Mutants. That combo just isn't as fast as other upgraded rushes, which can be very fast.
With the Fallen deck I gave above, this is the second efficient and fun deck using improved mutation either in spell or in ability form. These two example demonstrate well the versatility and the fun side of mutation.
You say that Fate Egg is as good as this. I kindly request an example ...
Here's a Fate Egg PSN. This can get a lot of damage out in the first few turns. I think it's faster than your Twin Mutants, but if you disagree, we can have testing done.
Twin mutant above is a duo as well as the Adrenatropy :life/ :entropy deck. I have never seen something similar half as good with fate egg.Fate PSN can match your Twin Mutant, even if it isn't a duo.
I think I have shown that Fate Egg is way weaker than Mutation|Improved Mutation|Fallen Elf|Fallen Druid.Fallen Elf is stronger than Fate Egg, but I think Fate Egg can match Mutation and Improved Mutation based on the Fate PSN I posted.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 29, 2011, 06:39:41 am
Here's a Fate Egg PSN. This can get a lot of damage out in the first few turns.Good catch. Obviously, if RNG is on your side this deck kicks ass. However, the high instability of the PSN structure combined with the luck based hatch mechanic make this deck highly unreliable. Here one can spot the crux. Fate Egg and mutation are both RNG based. However, mutants have a bonus which makes them worth it whereas fate egg doesn't.
P.S. : add a discord in your deck to make scrambled eggs ... :D
P.S.2: Thanks for the interesting discussion. 8)
If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns intoThis is a good idea - I think it would worth it if the opponent could not foresee the coming creature. If he could he could choose wisely which egg to blow and then the advantage would turn to a drawback.
:time : "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!
In any case, I think the idea of making the egg or the spawn creature "rewindable" into a new egg is the good one. The card idea I proposed (earlier in this thread) is maybe too much of a change to be called a buff (it's more a remake). However, in there I mentioned a passive ability which could be a good way through the problem. The ability is called "hatched". Any creature out of a fate egg should have this passive. When rewound the creature would turn into a fate egg again. This would make the whole lot more resilient to RT and make the fate egg eternity combo a worthy one. A way to change the destiny would make sense for a time elemental, don't you think?
I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 :time.I agree. In addition, a little cost reduction wouldn't hurt.
Post by: pancosis on August 29, 2011, 05:00:14 pm
How about giving it a Passive skill called Incubation: the longer it incubates the better chance for a more powerful creature. Incubation could also make it untargetable.that actually sounds really fun
but instead of untargetable i think it should just be like 0/5 or 0/3
that way its up to u to avoid reverse times and stuff, but who knows
but either way id post that in the card idea section (do they take changes?)
Post by: Xenocidius on September 28, 2011, 06:50:08 am
If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns intoAdded to the poll; feel free to change your vote.
:time : "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!
Post by: Bleys295 on September 28, 2011, 01:19:10 pm
Post by: rickerd on September 28, 2011, 01:30:53 pm
btw can a fate egg hatch into another fate egg, that would be fun XD
Post by: furballdn on October 01, 2011, 06:45:51 am
Post by: silux on October 03, 2011, 03:59:47 pm
3 :time: Hatch
This would make a small change to quanta costs, but improves the mechanics a lot!
If the Egg dies or is countered before to hatch, you have saved 3 :time.
The egg can be reproduced more easily trough mitosis, but total cost of summoning a random creature is the same!
You can play more egg at once, so if one dies because reapeatable CC, you have more mana to hatch survivors.
Post by: pancosis on October 03, 2011, 11:41:01 pm
Post by: Chapuz on October 07, 2011, 10:48:32 pm
Fate Egg 1 :time 0|1It would be extra powerfull with 1.29 SoR. Love the idea.
3 :time: Hatch
This would make a small change to quanta costs, but improves the mechanics a lot!
If the Egg dies or is countered before to hatch, you have saved 3 :time.
The egg can be reproduced more easily trough mitosis, but total cost of summoning a random creature is the same!
You can play more egg at once, so if one dies because reapeatable CC, you have more mana to hatch survivors.
Post by: furballdn on October 07, 2011, 11:39:55 pm
Fate Egg 1 :time 0|1I agree with this.
3 :time: Hatch
This would make a small change to quanta costs, but improves the mechanics a lot!
If the Egg dies or is countered before to hatch, you have saved 3 :time.
The egg can be reproduced more easily trough mitosis, but total cost of summoning a random creature is the same!
You can play more egg at once, so if one dies because reapeatable CC, you have more mana to hatch survivors.
Post by: ndclub on October 08, 2011, 02:13:04 am
Spend 3 quantum to save 3 quantum but waste another deckslot? That is unless adrenaline stays with whatever creature comes out of the egg.Fate Egg 1 :time 0|1It would be extra powerfull with 1.29 SoR. Love the idea.
3 :time: Hatch
This would make a small change to quanta costs, but improves the mechanics a lot!
If the Egg dies or is countered before to hatch, you have saved 3 :time.
The egg can be reproduced more easily trough mitosis, but total cost of summoning a random creature is the same!
You can play more egg at once, so if one dies because reapeatable CC, you have more mana to hatch survivors.
Post by: Pineapple on October 08, 2011, 12:30:17 pm
Yes, if you Adrenaline an egg, the hatched creature has adrenaline (and poison counters, etc.)Spend 3 quantum to save 3 quantum but waste another deckslot? That is unless adrenaline stays with whatever creature comes out of the egg.Fate Egg 1 :time 0|1It would be extra powerfull with 1.29 SoR. Love the idea.
3 :time: Hatch
This would make a small change to quanta costs, but improves the mechanics a lot!
If the Egg dies or is countered before to hatch, you have saved 3 :time.
The egg can be reproduced more easily trough mitosis, but total cost of summoning a random creature is the same!
You can play more egg at once, so if one dies because reapeatable CC, you have more mana to hatch survivors.
However, check new SoR, it doesn't adrenaline it, it makes double the hatched creature when "hatch" is used.
Post by: makapse on November 09, 2011, 11:11:41 am
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on November 09, 2011, 12:28:05 pm
what say ya'll?
Post by: Van Helsing on November 09, 2011, 01:12:37 pm
Don't buff, it's ok as it is.
Anyways, comparation should be graboid i think. (graboid=OP)
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on November 09, 2011, 02:30:21 pm
Live Britney alone.(http://www.vodkronikals.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/jackie-chan-meme.png)
Don't buff, it's ok as it is.
Anyways, comparation should be graboid i think. (graboid=OP)
Post by: rickerd on November 09, 2011, 05:11:09 pm
Live Britney alone.kind of a fail ?
Don't buff, it's ok as it is.
Anyways, comparation should be graboid i think. (graboid=OP)
Post by: Van Helsing on November 09, 2011, 06:23:07 pm
I really think fate egg should not be modified, it is ok as it is :P
Post by: jacker on November 10, 2011, 02:08:39 pm
Post by: petersenk on November 10, 2011, 09:12:36 pm
Enter burrowedAbsolutely. Fits the theme well too.
As for a low mutant-probability.. why not. Sounds fun.
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on November 12, 2011, 02:43:20 am
Post by: Elite arbiter on November 12, 2011, 04:20:14 am
Post by: Zerker on November 12, 2011, 04:25:40 am
Post by: rosutosefi on November 12, 2011, 09:47:25 am
Post by: PlayerOa on November 12, 2011, 01:01:28 pm
Post by: Elite arbiter on November 12, 2011, 06:33:55 pm
Voted for a decrease in cost. Making it enter burrowed will kill the fractal or SoR combo. A 4 attack creature for 3 quanta is balanced IMO, and the vulnerability of the resulting creature to nightmare or reverse time should balance the slight advantage. But if this buff is too strong, maybe just increase the HP a bit. :))(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/GiantFrog.png)
Say hello, Giant Frog.
Post by: rosutosefi on November 13, 2011, 12:39:21 am
Well, 4 attack creature for 3 quanta with abilities. :PVoted for a decrease in cost. Making it enter burrowed will kill the fractal or SoR combo. A 4 attack creature for 3 quanta is balanced IMO, and the vulnerability of the resulting creature to nightmare or reverse time should balance the slight advantage. But if this buff is too strong, maybe just increase the HP a bit. :))(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/GiantFrog.png)
Say hello, Giant Frog.
Post by: Cadron96 on November 23, 2011, 09:45:50 pm
Post by: macgawel on November 27, 2011, 11:37:23 pm
Fate Egg 1 :time 0|1Good idea !
3 :time: Hatch
Another option :
When you hatch it, the Fate egg rewinds. So the time theme is OK, and you've got :time (infinite ;) ) Fate eggs...
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on November 28, 2011, 01:54:15 am
this doesnt make any sense, if you take an egg, and a chicken comes out of it, does that egg usually shoot back up the chicken that laid it and pop out again? lolFate Egg 1 :time 0|1Good idea !
3 :time: Hatch
Another option :
When you hatch it, the Fate egg rewinds. So the time theme is OK, and you've got :time (infinite ;) ) Fate eggs...
Post by: Dengeki on November 28, 2011, 04:53:58 am
Post by: rosutosefi on November 28, 2011, 12:27:17 pm
:darkness please do nothing to this egg, it would ruin my 'scrambled eggs', deck. i think its just fine the way it is.We're planning on buffing it.
Post by: Dengeki on November 28, 2011, 07:30:06 pm
:darkness :water
Post by: omegareaper7 on November 28, 2011, 08:21:44 pm
i think its just fine the way it is, doesnt need a buff. buffing it would iether shut off its already powerful utility, or make it cheaper than it really needs to be causeing my scrambled eggs deck to become unbalanced and even more way too powerfull. i mean am i not gonna be up set when it cost 2 or 1 to play, not really, since i will have first turn 6 possible dragons. but it costing 3 is what keeps it fair for my opponents, it means at best usuall hand i may have 2-4 dragons first turn. but if it cost 2 or 1 i could easily obtain 4-6 dragons by second turn.( iknow it pops with low crap. but for me this is only about 35% of the time. rest of time i get retarded awesome). and if you add those other ideas to it, it would loose the benifit of SoR. like burrowed for example. and i dont think it should pop with mutants thats :entropy's domain.so you want it to remain a joke card? because at the moment, thats all it is.
:darkness :water
Post by: Dengeki on November 29, 2011, 02:28:25 am
:darkness
Post by: Firenotes on November 29, 2011, 03:25:33 am
Post by: omegareaper7 on November 29, 2011, 04:21:42 am
well no i dont want any card to be a joke card. but i dont want any card to become overpowered or broken. i think it has what it needs to do at what price in should be compared to what it can be combo'd with, and also its advantages over some shields, and if it changes it will then make certain other cards even more useless. plus with the forge trying to make cards that lay eggs, and make eggs, its going to become extra broken. i just feal it is already a balanced card; from price to ability. especially in the over-all possible future of this game. and besides i thought when they upped the SoR- that was all the upgrade fate egg needed. like i said if it gets cheaper great my deck becomes even more overpowered than it already is, if it gets 0/+2 stat boost wont make a single difference, if it is burrowed becomes a useless card for time shard, and mutate is :entropy's domain. however the reverse time thing is kinda interesting but is it worth the work to add that much code to track cards that were once eggs, not to mention egg +SoR, rewind one-and SoR that one-Tada !!!! broken like deja vu rewind stall...A two card combo is easy to beat, also, immo rushes still would get damage out faster, giving it a buff would do nothing to hurt the game.
:darkness
Post by: tsgreen on December 11, 2011, 10:57:34 am
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on December 11, 2011, 02:03:16 pm
Post by: Friedrich Psitalon on December 13, 2011, 06:22:42 pm
"Fun" decks can come in a billion flavors, and a billion themes. You don't design cards for "fun" decks - theme decks can pop up anywhere, and always will. You want cards to have a specific, meaningful choice attached to them - even if it's a choice many players reject - for competitive play.
This one, right now, clearly does not.
Post by: Dengeki on December 15, 2011, 12:42:36 am
Post by: RavingRabbid on December 16, 2011, 09:49:47 pm
The "egghatch'd" creature enters play with a random 0-3 buff for every stat.
Post by: Chapuz on December 17, 2011, 03:21:13 pm
after many more games with my platnum egg farmer deck, i was going to come back here and change my vote(doesnt seem to allow that though). and although i still firmly believe it should not pop with mutations not even a little. but i was going to recast my vote for cost reduction to 2 :time . my reasons are because time is actually a very quantum costly element. there are alot of abilities that require constant re-use costs. actually, not going to go into my reasons. just wanted to change my vote.Platinum egg farmer? I want to see that deck, please!
Post by: DesiredNinja on January 11, 2012, 12:29:45 am
Post by: Incoming on March 03, 2012, 07:29:15 pm
Post by: FIQ on June 19, 2012, 09:53:47 pm
Because, paying 3+1 quanta for a *delayed* random creature which can be CCed for 1 turn, with the enormous stat of 0|1 is not really good IMO.
Maybe increase the cost to 5 time for this, but it will still be a buff, as the problem here is CC.
That, or make it enter burrowed as Graboid.
Post by: eaglgenes101 on June 19, 2012, 11:21:14 pm
2 :time : 0|8 (Hello, eggs are supposed to protect the stuff inside them). 1 :time : hatch
Post by: Poker Alho on June 19, 2012, 11:59:10 pm
Post by: Picheleiro on June 20, 2012, 09:48:31 am
i dont really think eggs are that UP, when you mix them with SoR and some improved mutations, you can make a seriously fast rush deck... if you get a bit lucky of course. i would still agree on a cost decrease if it were to be buffed
Something like this.
But I think it deserves a buff. Even in false god decks sucks a bit. SoSe its a better option and cost less.
Post by: Poker Alho on June 20, 2012, 10:08:46 am
i dont really think eggs are that UP, when you mix them with SoR and some improved mutations, you can make a seriously fast rush deck... if you get a bit lucky of course. i would still agree on a cost decrease if it were to be buffed
Something like this.
But I think it deserves a buff. Even in false god decks sucks a bit. SoSe its a better option and cost less.
6 eggs are enough, no need to mix mitosis. simply make a :time :entropy duo using pends, Snovas and improved mutations
Post by: poinl on June 20, 2012, 11:22:25 pm
Post by: Xamuel on June 20, 2012, 11:27:15 pm
Post by: poinl on June 20, 2012, 11:29:50 pm
It would require a little extra coding, but it would be cool if hatched creatures had special interaction with the spell "Reverse Time". Instead of going into their owner's hand, they revert back to egg form. Come on, you have to admit it'd be cute. It'd be a nice small little buff, very thematic, and fun synergy with RT to re-roll the egg if you get a poor creature the first time.
That doesnt sound very powerful, but i think it would be a cool addition.
Post by: Poker Alho on June 20, 2012, 11:30:41 pm
It would require a little extra coding, but it would be cool if hatched creatures had special interaction with the spell "Reverse Time". Instead of going into their owner's hand, they revert back to egg form. Come on, you have to admit it'd be cute. It'd be a nice small little buff, very thematic, and fun synergy with RT to re-roll the egg if you get a poor creature the first time.
that... actually makes sense. would synergyse awesomely with eternity or of course, RTs. it could work as nice in-element counter to :times CC, kinda like mummy and skeleton, but better :P
Post by: rosutosefi on June 20, 2012, 11:44:12 pm
Just a simple change to 1 summon cost and 3 skill cost (or 2 and 2) would be sufficient IMO. If it has a problem being vulnerable, why not make it cost less when summoning so that you don't lose a lot when it gets killed?
Slightly relevant: I hate Shard of Readiness.
Post by: Poker Alho on June 20, 2012, 11:53:05 pm
A wild idea appeared!
Just a simple change to 1 summon cost and 3 skill cost (or 2 and 2) would be sufficient IMO. If it has a problem being vulnerable, why not make it cost less when summoning so that you don't lose a lot when it gets killed?
Slightly relevant: I hate Shard of Readiness.
well i love it :P
i also love SoR xD
Post by: SnoWeb on June 21, 2012, 07:37:36 am
Just a simple change to 1 summon cost and 3 skill cost (or 2 and 2) would be sufficient IMO. If it has a problem being vulnerable, why not make it cost less when summoning so that you don't lose a lot when it gets killed?Makes sense. +1
Post by: Annele on June 21, 2012, 07:41:28 am
Just a simple change to 1 summon cost and 3 skill cost (or 2 and 2) would be sufficient IMO. If it has a problem being vulnerable, why not make it cost less when summoning so that you don't lose a lot when it gets killed?Makes sense. +1
Agreed.
Post by: Picheleiro on June 21, 2012, 08:53:48 am
6 eggs are enough, no need to mix mitosis. simply make a :time :entropy duo using pends, Snovas and improved mutations
And some RoL or another free creatures? No? A 6 random creature rush sounds pretty weak.
Post by: FIQ on June 21, 2012, 11:42:40 am
EDIT: However, it would buff the SoR synergy a bit. Maybe too much?
Post by: Poker Alho on June 21, 2012, 11:53:35 am
6 eggs are enough, no need to mix mitosis. simply make a :time :entropy duo using pends, Snovas and improved mutations
And some RoL or another free creatures? No? A 6 random creature rush sounds pretty weak.
not 6 creatures, 12 :P. if you use SoR on a fate egg, it creates 2 copies of random creature. plus, the Snovas can be used to create singularities and those can be turned into something useful using improved mutation, so you get way more than 6 creatures most of the times
Post by: rosutosefi on June 21, 2012, 12:14:55 pm
I agree of making the cost 1+3 instead of 3+1 would be good.
EDIT: However, it would buff the SoR synergy a bit. Maybe too much?
That's why I hate SoR.
Post by: esran on June 21, 2012, 03:27:58 pm
Post by: Annele on June 22, 2012, 12:13:18 am
it buffs not only the SOR synergy, but also allows for fractal synergy to work better.
2 :time casting cost, and 2 :time ability could balance this a bit more.
Post by: Chapuz on June 22, 2012, 02:56:50 am
Post by: furballdn on June 22, 2012, 03:49:02 am
A poll with the mentiones options would be really good.There was one a while ago. Where was it? Was it on the old forums?
It's here (http://elementscommunity.com/forum/index.php?topic=29498.0) and most people wanted a decreased casting cost of 2 :time.
Post by: esran on June 22, 2012, 04:10:39 am
Post by: Annele on June 22, 2012, 04:12:17 am
not a majority though, merely a plurality. it was an apparently highly disputed topic, with many ideas. i personally like a cost decrease, but only if its compensated by and ability cost increase.
Agreed.
Post by: tyranim on June 22, 2012, 04:51:57 am
first, why no poll anymore?
second, i ADORE the incubation and burrow thing. it just makes this card so juicy :L
Post by: Picheleiro on June 22, 2012, 09:48:30 am
not 6 creatures, 12 :P. if you use SoR on a fate egg, it creates 2 copies of random creature. plus, the Snovas can be used to create singularities and those can be turned into something useful using improved mutation, so you get way more than 6 creatures most of the times
I didnt know that. Even with that i have tried this:
And sucks. It´s not only the hatch, its that you get a lot of dead cards in hand.
Post by: Poker Alho on June 22, 2012, 09:54:26 am
not 6 creatures, 12 :P. if you use SoR on a fate egg, it creates 2 copies of random creature. plus, the Snovas can be used to create singularities and those can be turned into something useful using improved mutation, so you get way more than 6 creatures most of the times
I didnt know that. Even with that i have tried this:
And sucks. It´s not only the hatch, its that you get a lot of dead cards in hand.
just because you didnt got lucky on the hatches and mutations (and you dont need 6 improved mutations, just 4 max) doesnt mean it sucks
Post by: Jumpitydude on June 22, 2012, 02:22:03 pm
Like convincing everyone that Skeleton is overpowered. :P (JK)
Post by: Cheesy111 on June 22, 2012, 02:27:11 pm
This card is about luck; you're just as likely to get a 9/10 Dragon with growth as you are to get a 0/3 Pest with Vampire. This makes it a heavily unreliable card that's only good for False Gods, Half-Bloods, and fun play. Buff it, remove it, I don't know. I've got other things to worry about.Actually, the percentage of you getting a dragon with growth is 800% higher than the chance of getting a pest with Vampire. 0% and 0%.
Like convincing everyone that Skeleton is overpowered. :P (JK)
Post by: Poker Alho on June 22, 2012, 04:01:30 pm
This card is about luck; you're just as likely to get a 9/10 Dragon with growth as you are to get a 0/3 Pest with Vampire. This makes it a heavily unreliable card that's only good for False Gods, Half-Bloods, and fun play. Buff it, remove it, I don't know. I've got other things to worry about.
Like convincing everyone that Skeleton is overpowered. :P (JK)
the egg always hatches a normal random creature, not mutants...
Post by: rosutosefi on June 22, 2012, 04:52:35 pm
This card is about luck; you're just as likely to get a 9/10 Dragon with growth as you are to get a 0/3 Pest with Vampire. This makes it a heavily unreliable card that's only good for False Gods, Half-Bloods, and fun play. Buff it, remove it, I don't know. I've got other things to worry about.
Like convincing everyone that Skeleton is overpowered. :P (JK)
This makes me doubt that you tried using fate egg. If it's only good for fun play, then there's a problem. Remember that cards should be balanced around PVP and not on PVE. PVE balances can be done later. If you've got other things to worry about, it's trying to say something constructive.
Post by: ratcharmer on July 22, 2012, 04:35:15 am
The Average stats were about 4 attack 5 hp. Since the total cost is 4 :time (3 to summon, 1 to hatch) and there's the 1 turn delay period it come's out being a substantially worse creature than Graviton Merc (who isn't exactly a powerhouse either). Compared to other "1 turn delay" creatures like Graboid or Lycanthrope Fate Egg is absolutely pathetic.
To answer a couple things that keep coming up:
Fate Egg Nymphs: Yes, you can get nymphs from a fate egg, but really most nymphs are only useful in a deck designed to use them. When you randomly shove nymphs into a deck they often end up working against you, or at the least you won't get much out of them.
You didn't get lucky: The fact that fate egg is luck based tendsto disguise just how bad the stats are. The fact that you can get a 10/10 dragon for 4 :time does not change the fact that you usually won't. Blaming losing with fate egg on bad luck is roughly the same as a man who goes broke after wasting all his money at a casino blaming his financial troubles on luck.
Now, if someone would be kind enough to fill me in (I've been gone for a while), do the new shard creatures ever hatch from a fate egg?
Post by: furballdn on July 22, 2012, 04:43:04 am
Actually, way back in the day we tested Fate Egg. Every creature has an equal chance of hatching, save for a few that never hatch at all (chimera etc)Nope. SoFo cannot hatch out of a fate egg.
The Average stats were about 4 attack 5 hp. Since the total cost is 4 :time (3 to summon, 1 to hatch) and there's the 1 turn delay period it come's out being a substantially worse creature than Graviton Merc (who isn't exactly a powerhouse either). Compared to other "1 turn delay" creatures like Graboid or Lycanthrope Fate Egg is absolutely pathetic.
To answer a couple things that keep coming up:
Fate Egg Nymphs: Yes, you can get nymphs from a fate egg, but really most nymphs are only useful in a deck designed to use them. When you randomly shove nymphs into a deck they often end up working against you, or at the least you won't get much out of them.
You didn't get lucky: The fact that fate egg is luck based tendsto disguise just how bad the stats are. The fact that you can get a 10/10 dragon for 4 :time does not change the fact that you usually won't. Blaming losing with fate egg on bad luck is roughly the same as a man who goes broke after wasting all his money at a casino blaming his financial troubles on luck.
Now, if someone would be kind enough to fill me in (I've been gone for a while), do the new shard creatures ever hatch from a fate egg?
Post by: OldTrees on July 22, 2012, 07:52:40 am
Actually, way back in the day we tested Fate Egg. Every creature has an equal chance of hatching, save for a few that never hatch at all (chimera etc)Thank you for that data.
The Average stats were about 4 attack 5 hp. Since the total cost is 4 :time (3 to summon, 1 to hatch) and there's the 1 turn delay period it come's out being a substantially worse creature than Graviton Merc (who isn't exactly a powerhouse either). Compared to other "1 turn delay" creatures like Graboid or Lycanthrope Fate Egg is absolutely pathetic.
If the expected result is a 4|5 with an unhelpful ability then a cost of 4 :time + 1 turn + 1 card is too high.
A correct cost would be 2-3 :time (divided between casting an activation cost as you see fit) +1 turn + 1 card.
Post by: furballdn on July 23, 2012, 02:07:59 am
3 :time + 5 :rainbow + 2 cards + 0 turns for an average of 8 damage and 5hp?
Post by: eaglgenes101 on July 23, 2012, 02:28:23 am
What about SoR interaction?Forced combo are bad. We need to give fate egg a buff without buffing SoR usage. I suggest reduced activation cost and higher HP.
3 :time + 5 :rainbow + 2 cards + 0 turns for an average of 8 damage and 5hp?
Post by: furballdn on July 23, 2012, 02:32:48 am
Post by: eaglgenes101 on July 23, 2012, 02:58:43 am
Post by: furballdn on July 23, 2012, 03:00:33 am
Random variation is as important as the average. Chaos power is cheaper than improved blessing, which is more consistent but has the same average effect.Still, many people agree CP is better. You see CP wyrms, not blessing wyrms. The only time I'd say blessing is better is if you really needed consistency, like in an OTK. Otherwise, CP is better on average.
Post by: rosutosefi on July 23, 2012, 04:01:05 am
What about SoR interaction?
3 :time + 5 :rainbow + 2 cards + 0 turns for an average of 8 damage and 5hp?
SoR is OP, but time creature abilities are weak so you won't really notice its overpoweredness in the game. There's only 1 time creature that has a non-time ability cost. What if SoR was an Air shard? Life? Entropy? Light? Water? It only proves that time creature abilities need some kind of buffing, and SoR should get nerfed.
Post by: ratcharmer on July 23, 2012, 04:08:59 am
Post by: Luminous on August 02, 2012, 08:54:04 pm
Post by: Vangelios on August 04, 2012, 12:18:17 am
Post by: OldTrees on August 04, 2012, 02:14:59 am
The interesting this card is the surprise factorSome players like surprise.
Post by: choongmyoung on August 04, 2012, 03:40:06 am
Post by: Luminous on August 04, 2012, 11:47:47 am
We don't give buff. Zanz does.What about SoR interaction?Forced combo are bad. We need to give fate egg a buff without buffing SoR usage. I suggest reduced activation cost and higher HP.
3 :time + 5 :rainbow + 2 cards + 0 turns for an average of 8 damage and 5hp?
Reducing summoning cost + higher HP is kinda silly. This means 2 buffs. If you want higher HP,spend some electrum and there you are! But i still think this does not need a buff. Specially,you can summon 14/18 with only 4 :time . So,buffing not needed here.
Post by: frimax on August 04, 2012, 01:34:35 pm
Working in a SoR+fate egg combo, for the highest damage and as fast as possible,
3 towers+1 nova+egg+SoR//or//2 novas+1 tower+egg+SoR//or//3 nova+mutation+egg+SoR=
so far, 2 12/6 black dragons 1st turn,
2 sky dragons first turn, 2 jade dragons 1st turn.
and still you want a buff.
(http://i.imgur.com/pfv15.jpg)
:P
Post by: OldTrees on August 04, 2012, 03:42:29 pm
A 14|18? I think you are confusing this with mutation. Mutation only turns into basic creatures (like a Golden Dragon)We don't give buff. Zanz does.What about SoR interaction?Forced combo are bad. We need to give fate egg a buff without buffing SoR usage. I suggest reduced activation cost and higher HP.
3 :time + 5 :rainbow + 2 cards + 0 turns for an average of 8 damage and 5hp?
Reducing summoning cost + higher HP is kinda silly. This means 2 buffs. If you want higher HP,spend some electrum and there you are! But i still think this does not need a buff. Specially,you can summon 14/18 with only 4 :time . So,buffing not needed here.
Additionally the extremes of the possible stats (3|0 to 13|13) are irrelevant. The average matters. The average (a few pages back) was shown to be weaker than the cost would call for.
Yes. I do. The extremes (Photon vs Sky Dragon) do not matter. Only the average matters.
Working in a SoR+fate egg combo, for the highest damage and as fast as possible,
3 towers+1 nova+egg+SoR//or//2 novas+1 tower+egg+SoR//or//3 nova+mutation+egg+SoR=
so far, 2 12/6 black dragons 1st turn,
2 sky dragons first turn, 2 jade dragons 1st turn.
and still you want a buff.(http://i.imgur.com/pfv15.jpg):P
Post by: frimax on August 04, 2012, 08:49:04 pm
very weak creature: 10% chance (RoL)
weak creature: 10% (graviton mercenary)
normal creature: 35% (steel golem)
above the average: 30% (archangel)
powerful: 10% (golden dragon)
super mutant 5%: (armagio+devour) got one of those hahaha :P
what do you think?
(http://i.imgur.com/2Hx8d.jpg)
Post by: OldTrees on August 04, 2012, 08:59:17 pm
probably you are right about the fact that RoL, genomes, Leaf D, spark and stuff like that are annoying, maybe the buff, can be the probability I dunno if someone already said this: lets buff the chance?Buffing the chance could be done however all possible creatures have an equal chance right now.
very weak creature: 10% chance (RoL)
weak creature: 10% (graviton mercenary)
normal creature: 35% (steel golem)
above the average: 30% (archangel)
powerful: 10% (golden dragon)
super mutant 5%: (armagio+devour) got one of those hahaha :P
what do you think?
PS: Your supermutant was not from a regular or upgraded fate egg was it? Instead it was from a mutant with the hatch ability correct?
Post by: frimax on August 04, 2012, 09:59:34 pm
it was from a singularity hahaha :o, my deck contains 2 improved mutant+6 supernovas, which I find very, very effective for rush and stuff.
cheers.
:D
Post by: OldTrees on August 04, 2012, 10:53:27 pm
Umm.
it was from a singularity hahaha :o, my deck contains 2 improved mutant+6 supernovas, which I find very, very effective for rush and stuff.
cheers.
:D
You do realize that Mutation and Hatch are different AND Fate Egg uses Hatch right?
Post by: Luminous on August 05, 2012, 12:27:39 am
^Umm.
it was from a singularity hahaha :o, my deck contains 2 improved mutant+6 supernovas, which I find very, very effective for rush and stuff.
cheers.
:D
You do realize that Mutation and Hatch are different AND Fate Egg uses Hatch right?
But,there are mutants with hatch ability,though. I remember a thing like that. (I might be wrong.)
Assuming you know,deja vu effects on mutants are unstable. Shouldn't it be copying the same mutant ? Why another,unstable,mutant there ?
May you explain ?
Post by: OldTrees on August 05, 2012, 01:09:59 am
That is unrelated to Fate Egg.^Umm.
it was from a singularity hahaha :o, my deck contains 2 improved mutant+6 supernovas, which I find very, very effective for rush and stuff.
cheers.
:D
You do realize that Mutation and Hatch are different AND Fate Egg uses Hatch right?
But,there are mutants with hatch ability,though. I remember a thing like that. (I might be wrong.)
Assuming you know,deja vu effects on mutants are unstable. Shouldn't it be copying the same mutant ? Why another,unstable,mutant there ?
May you explain ?
(the mutant passive ability triggers when the creature with mutant is created. Deja Vu replaces 1 mutant with 2)
Post by: ratcharmer on August 06, 2012, 06:47:50 am
Working in a SoR+fate egg combo, for the highest damage and as fast as possible,
3 towers+1 nova+egg+SoR//or//2 novas+1 tower+egg+SoR//or//3 nova+mutation+egg+SoR=
so far, 2 12/6 black dragons 1st turn,
2 sky dragons first turn, 2 jade dragons 1st turn.
and still you want a buff.(http://i.imgur.com/pfv15.jpg):P
When dealing with a card that involves a random chance on should NEVER balance based on the the best possible outcome. Yes, the deck you show will occasionally get out a LOT of damage on the first turn, but that's nowhere near the whole story.
First let's look at how likely the combo is to go off:
-You have to draw the entire 5 or 6-card combo very early on (first or second turn) or it doesn't do you any good. This is doable IF you devote the entire deck to this combo, but there will always be a higher chance of "bad draws" with a deck like this (draw all SoR/no eggs etc).
-Even if you get the combo out first turn it only gives about a 25% chance of getting out the massive damage you're talking about (I didn't run the math on this, but I know on AVERAGE you get somewhere around 4 damage from a fate egg--so most of the time when you pull off your combo you'll have about 8 or 9 damage out turn 1.)
Now let's assume you DO pull off the combo and land 2 dragons on the first turn:
-This is not the automatic win you seem to think it is, yes it's impressive, but a decent control deck should be able to shut that down. In fact the entire combo can often be shut down by your opponent playing a single card (RoF, Antimatter, Pand--just to name a few).
-You aren't going to be doing much of anything on your next couple of turns. Since you just played 6 cards from your opening hand it isn't at all likely that you'll be drawing the combo again soon and the individual cards of the combo are not at all strong on their own.
-The odds are against pulling the combo off once. It's even less likely you'll get that lucky twice in one game.
What happens if you DON'T get the combo:
-The only cards you would want to play if you can't put the whole combo down at once would be the towers. Playing fate egg without SoR is just begging for the enemy cc to eat you alive, SoR CAN'T be played without a target, and while nova you could sometimes get away with playing it early is inviting trouble from black holes, singularities etc. Thus you end up with almost an entire hand of "dead cards" you can't play.
One last note:
-Even a brief glance shows that the power of the combo is not coming from fate egg. Fate egg on it's own would be a full turn slower, less quanta efficient, half the damage output and much more vulnerable to cc. SoR being a strong card does not make fate egg any less weak.
Post by: TheManuz on February 05, 2013, 01:57:02 pm
This would be a simple buff for two reasons:
the "partial" immunity to rewind would give the creature spawned a plus among other creatures.
the possibility to retry another hatch without wasting an egg (but you're wasting a turn and a rewind).
Soffy if this has been proposed before! But the thread was 11 pages long and i didn't want to search through them!
Post by: choongmyoung on February 05, 2013, 05:50:26 pm
If you want to use them only attacking, it's UP about 2 :time.
If you want to use their ability, it requires to be rainbow.
Furthermore it is random. Remember CP vs Blessing. Random(not reliable) should cost less.
Furthermore it doesn't attack on the first turn.
Furthermore any damaging spell or lobotomize or devour will kill it in first turn.
Furthermore RT will kill it(usually strong creatures) in second or more turn.
/
Fate Egg + SoR is balanced.
Fate Egg + SoR = 5 :time 2 cards = 7 :time 1 card = 9ATK. (see GotP)
Fate Egg + SoR = 2 instant random creatures = around 8ATK.
/
I think entering burrowed will make it more balanced, but it will kill MitoEgg / FractalEgg / SoREgg.
How about making it generate :time per turn (as passive / as inside the active skill "hatch" mechanically)?
It will
- make it costs 3 :time normally.
- do not affect SoREgg.
- make it the longer it is on the field the longer it benefits.
Post by: TheAccuso on March 22, 2013, 04:48:12 am
The average cost of a non-upgraded creature is about 5.5.
The cost of fate egg is 3+1+1turn(to just not be a 0/3 stick).
We could say that 3+1+1 turn is in fact about 5.5 since 1 turn is worth more then 1 quanta on a rough estimate.
So we can say that fate egg is kinda balanced but the problem itself is that is not well distribuited:
We thought that a good solution might be to make it 2(summoning)2 ability+1 turn ofc.
This might help to don't overpay for a 0/3 stick and so to have a better quanta/turns/result ratio, plus almost evryone who plays fate eggs also plays a monotime and this might help to be able to put it in some non-time decks.
EDIT:After having consulted Zblader we found that the comparison with graboid(due to the hatch mechanic) should have to be done and so we have come to those conclusions:
The main problem is (regarding the fact that graboid uses a second element to hatch) that fate egg doesn't worth its price on summoning while it's okay after 1 turn, but giving the fact that an egg an atk value(wich is what it lacks of for being counted as worthy of its price), is not fitting thematics.
We then thought that a good solution may be making it costs 2+2 but with skills ready to use(see fenghuang for clarifications).
+ using the ability on turn 1 is an option that you may not use, making for tactics.
Post by: AvusXIV on March 22, 2013, 05:58:56 am
Me and doctor CaptainScibra have discussed in chat about the fate egg question, this are the things we have found out:
The average cost of a non-upgraded creature is about 5.5.
The cost of fate egg is 3+1+1turn(to just not be a 0/3 stick).
We could say that 3+1+1 turn is in fact about 5.5 since 1 turn is worth more then 1 quanta on a rough estimate.
So we can say that fate egg is kinda balanced but the problem itself is that is not well distribuited:
We thought that a good solution might be to make it 2(summoning)2 ability+1 turn ofc.
This might help to don't overpay for a 0/3 stick and so to have a better quanta/turns/result ratio, plus almost evryone who plays fate eggs also plays a monotime and this might help to be able to put it in some non-time decks.
EDIT:After having consulted Zblader we found that the a comparison with graboid(due to the hatch mechanic) should have to be done and so we have:
The main problem is (regarding the fact that graboid uses a second element to hatch) that fate egg doesn't worth its price on summoning while it's okay after 1 turn, but giving the fact that an egg(wich is what it lacks of for being counted as worthy of its price), with an atk value is not fitting thematics, we thought that a good solution may be making it costs 2+2 but with skills ready to use(see fenghuang for clarifications).
I think the creature's cost can be reduced to 2 :time without any other change.
The cost-formula is crock to a certain degree and nobody seems to realize it or care. Let's see:
Upped Abyss Crawler. 6|6. No ability. That's the cost of...8 or 9, right?
Armagio. 1|25. Ability. That's the cost of...12, right?
Horned Frog. 3|3. No ability. That's the cost of...4, right?
And so on. For the pros: I don't wanna start a formula discussion here, I read the topic about it, know about high-HP-creatures and bla. I didn't use the exact formula to calculate, so keep your correction efforts at bay...The point is: People should use their experience and knowledge, not some synthetical toy detached from the entire game. I mentioned that because my position shall be clear. The approach with cost calculation is of no use in my point of view.
Sorry for necroing this thread, but i thought: wouldn't be cool if creatures hatched from Fate Egg inherit a passive ability "Hatched" that causes them to revert back into a Fate Egg if rewinded?
This would be a simple buff for two reasons:
the "partial" immunity to rewind would give the creature spawned a plus among other creatures.
the possibility to retry another hatch without wasting an egg (but you're wasting a turn and a rewind).
Soffy if this has been proposed before! But the thread was 11 pages long and i didn't want to search through them!
A very good example why no formula is required. I like this idea a lot and think the card can be changed in this way. It would fit, it would make as much sense as there can be and make another card *RT-resistant*.
If two creatures are spawned by using SoR, there would be one RT-egg but still the 2nd creature on the field. How nice :)
Final words: As far as I'm concerned, there are no adjustments necessary to this card. To make it *perfect in any regard* - yes, but it's at least viable now. If there were changes, I'd favor Manuz' idea.
Post by: TheAccuso on March 22, 2013, 08:00:20 am
and as you've saw we have arrived to the concusion that the costs for fate egg are fine with 4 quanta.
But we haven't made a discourse merely based on the correct cost based on the formula to apply at fate egg, we also saw a confrontation problem, wich as you know, is one of the main factor that defines if a card is UP or OP, this because if another card in the game have a similar mechanic but is better then the one compared with, then a change is required.
That's why we compared it to the other hatching creature of the game and so the one with the most similar mechanic, wich happens to have similar costs too and it resulted in a big disadvantage for fate egg in many aspects, with the only pro in favour of fate egg that it can be played in a mono while graboid needs at least a different mark.
As for the manunz suggestion is a very good one and also fit thematics(wich is something to don't undervalue),but doesn't solve the UPness problem this card suffers from graboid.
And that's why a combination of the two can be made, one that redistributes values and in part mechanic to settle the gap and one nice additional mechanic.
But since adjusting something that already exists is primarly that add something without fixing the previous problems we brought the discussion on that level.
Hope to have been clear enought.
Post by: AvusXIV on March 22, 2013, 09:56:45 am
A basic formula or at least a rough standard setting for the values is needed and that's because it's the base where to build a game structure on, or one could make a 15|6 dragon that costs 6 water quanta and that's why a rough calculation was made before of talking about changes;
and as you've saw we have arrived to the concusion that the costs for fate egg are fine with 4 quanta.
But we haven't made a discourse merely based on the correct cost based on the formula to apply at fate egg, we also saw a confrontation problem, wich as you know, is one of the main factor that defines if a card is UP or OP, this because if another card in the game have a similar mechanic but is better then the one compared with, then a change is required.
1st) That was not what I was talking about. Of course the cards need balance, but there is no formula required as it is in use in this forum. Especially not the way it is practiced - also by you. Discussing about one single quanta, or even a half one, for checking if the price is fair ::) That's just ridiculous. Check out that for clarification. Cost issue: Fair? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,46069.msg1033049.html#msg1033049)
2nd) That's obviously wrong, your whole cost calculation and the arguments/thoughts around it is based on the formula as I quoted you and Captain in my last post. I try to put it in different words: The existing creatures widely vary from the costs the formula would give - because they are related to the strenghts and uses of cards. Maybe I am wrong and zanz did use one when creating the game and setting the cards costs, but I doubt that till I know better.
3rd) You can't just count the avg stats of a creature hatched by the egg or something to come to a conclusion. Nor compare it to a creature with a similar mechanic - because there isn't really any imo and it would not necessarily give any useful information. The questions are: In which decks is the egg used, how strong is it in fact and how reliable to be used as a basic card of a deck. This is answered by experience with that card - then you can think about it further.
Lots of people argue about it without even mentioning a little tiny bit of the card used in the game itself.
To me it's like I would check the results of a physical health and sports exame of 20 soccer players and then decide on which position and for how long I let them play:
The one fellow's oxygen level is still good after 30 minutes of continuous strain. On the other hand, his time over 100m is just 11,23 seconds. We got 5 other players with a time below 11 seconds. And on the *hit the bar*-precision test, he just hit 12 out of 30 times. Most of the other players hit at least 15 times ?_?
Post by: TheAccuso on March 22, 2013, 10:58:06 am
"The existing creatures widely vary from the costs the formula would give - because they are related to the strenghts and uses of cards."
Quotes from you*
First of all, it makes no sense because the strenght and the uses(wich is terribly generic and can means ability, atk/hp stats, or simply if it is a weapon or a creature if not a permanent), of a card, is directly linked with its cost(E.G Do you find stronger a 10/10 creature that costs 12 light or a 6/1 creature that costs 2 quanta?...) and that's why there is a rough formula to determine what the cost of a specific card should be and + you may want to know that there are some confirmed bonus that elements gets in comparison with others.
IMPORTANT NOTE: This game is no exact science and that's why from time to time people find themselves discussing about it or instead we could take the game as it is and say:_Yeah, there are no rules or idealistic values at all so it's ok to have any kind of costs in the new patch because it is right._
The second point makes clear that you know very little of what you're talking about, or at least you express yourself in a very confusional way.
Third point. Some quotes from you " You can't just count the avg stats of a creature hatched by the egg or something to come to a conclusion." Yes i can that's logic, you can make a rough estimate of how much the egg should worth. E.G.: fate egg will spawn just dragons. Would that be a clear signal that a 3+1 cost is no right? Think about it... "Nor compare it to a creature with a similar mechanic - because there isn't really any imo and it would not necessarily give any useful information."Now i couldn't link to you because i don't find it, but it's in the friggin' forum tips and guide lines of etgcommunity that the comparation with similar cards is one of the base to define if a card is UP or OP. That's about being logic after all E.G. understandable by anyone: I don't live alone and so i can't define how much imbalanced or balanced i am until i don't compare myself with the most similar being i found and gradually go over it. Simple enough i think.
I you have anything more to say to me contact me in a PM please, even if i don't know if i will evr respond to those messages.
Post by: AvusXIV on March 22, 2013, 12:33:16 pm
In the point one you say that the formula is needed but to discuss about it in minor details it's ridicoulous(that makes no sense because one simply doesn't improve things a bit, he does until he can), while instead i think that ridicolous is the fact that you're spamming this section with off topic notes just to proove you're the absolute right, wich, pardon me. but it's plain stupid.
"The existing creatures widely vary from the costs the formula would give - because they are related to the strenghts and uses of cards."
Quotes from you*
First of all, it makes no sense because the strenght and the uses(wich is terribly generic and can means ability, atk/hp stats, or simply if it is a weapon or a creature if not a permanent), of a card, is directly linked with its cost(E.G Do you find stronger a 10/10 creature that costs 12 light or a 6/1 creature that costs 2 quanta?...) and that's why there is a rough formula to determine what the cost of a specific card should be and + you may want to know that there are some confirmed bonus that elements gets in comparison with others.
IMPORTANT NOTE: This game is no exact science and that's why from time to time people find themselves discussing about it or instead we could take the game as it is and say:_Yeah, there are no rules or idealistic values at all so it's ok to have any kind of costs in the new patch because it is right._
The second point makes clear that you know very little of what you're talking about, or at least you express yourself in a very confusional way.
Third point. Some quotes from you " You can't just count the avg stats of a creature hatched by the egg or something to come to a conclusion." Yes i can that's logic, you can make a rough estimate of how much the egg should worth. E.G.: fate egg will spawn just dragons. Would that be a clear signal that a 3+1 cost is no right? Think about it... "Nor compare it to a creature with a similar mechanic - because there isn't really any imo and it would not necessarily give any useful information."Now i couldn't link to you because i don't find it, but it's in the friggin' forum tips and guide lines of etgcommunity that the comparation with similar cards is one of the base to define if a card is UP or OP. That's about being logic after all E.G. understandable by anyone: I don't live alone and so i can't define how much imbalanced or balanced i am until i don't compare myself with the most similar being i found and gradually go over it. Simple enough i think.
I you have anything more to say to me contact me in a PM please, even if i don't know if i will evr respond to those messages.
Just lol. Take it easy ;)
Post by: TheAccuso on March 22, 2013, 12:49:15 pm
Post by: AvusXIV on March 22, 2013, 04:43:29 pm
I take things seriously when is about things i do trying to be helpful. Selfish reasonings are not in my being.
Agree, same here :)
@ Topic: Manuz' RT-feature is still a thing that should really be considered ^^
Post by: OldTrees on March 22, 2013, 06:19:05 pm
I agree with
The approach used
The conclusion reached
The additional problem of the base card not being worth the base price (unlike graboid)
However I think you could refine this step
The average cost of a non-upgraded creature is about 5.5.The average cost is a good rough estimate of the average value but both are usually determined by the normal usage. A dragon is worth the same in the normal deck as it is in the fate egg deck. However many other creatures are valued under the premise they are supported by additional copies (pest) or by certain other cards (scorpions and attack buffs). So a way to refine this step would be to calculate the average value the new creature provides in a Fate Egg deck.
The cost-formula is crock to a certain degree and nobody seems to realize it or care. Let's see:You might want to understand what you critique before critiquing.
Upped Abyss Crawler. 6|6. No ability. That's the cost of...8 or 9, right?
Armagio. 1|25. Ability. That's the cost of...12, right?
Horned Frog. 3|3. No ability. That's the cost of...4, right?
6|6 upgraded = 6 (attack) + 1 (hp) - 1to2 (upgrade) = 5 = 4 :water + 1 card (not 8to9)
1|25 = 1 (attack) + 3 (hp) = 4 = 3 :gravity + 1 card
1|25 + Ability that uses hp = 1 (attack) + X (value of entangled hp and ability) = X+1 = X :gravity + 1 card (where X > 3) (could be 12 but very unlikely. 4to6 is more likely)
3|3 unupped = 3 (attack) + 0 (hp) = 3 = 2 :life + 1 card (not 4)
The formula is useful as a rough estimate from which playtesting can refine (see your obsidian Dragon example). It is like the educated guess and check method IF you refined your educated guess method based on your results. However proper use of the formula requires playtesting to check your estimate. I am sorry that you encountered many misuses of the formula.
Not going to continue this discussion here. Merely pointing out that you might want to understand before you critique and that I agree that it is sometimes misused.
Post by: bombzero on March 23, 2013, 04:35:13 am
How about giving it a Passive skill called Incubation: the longer it incubates the better chance for a more powerful creature. Incubation could also make it untargetable.
^this is a good idea
Post by: ohnodavido on March 23, 2013, 07:00:19 pm
Post by: serprex on June 16, 2013, 06:42:38 pm
Post by: CuCN on June 17, 2013, 04:37:30 am
Post by: Zergva on June 17, 2013, 12:50:00 pm
Post by: serprex on June 17, 2013, 02:13:55 pm
Post by: Pineapple on June 18, 2013, 09:27:44 am
The double hatch behavior seems a bug more than anything. If Fate Eggs didn't double hatch, SoR would still be balanced with Fate Egg
Also, I'm pretty sure there's no precedent for a creature costing less than its ability. Making it 2 :time for both the creature and the ability would probably be the most balanced.
Post by: kaempfer13 on June 18, 2013, 09:41:04 am
Post by: Silux on July 09, 2013, 10:21:54 pm
If you really want to play fate egg, carry an elite phoenix to get away the counters or guard it with iridium warden.Maybe it will survive.
If you want the random creature, but not the pain of seeing it die, use skeletons!They are already dead, so cast a rewind to get a random creature.Boneyards are full of them!
Post by: OldTrees on July 09, 2013, 10:24:53 pm
Fate egg isn't a competitive card, but more a fun card to use in pvp or low stress grinding.This is a reason to deal with other changes first. Not a reason to ignore this thread.
Post by: Silux on July 10, 2013, 11:45:15 am
Anyway i'd like it to have a pseudo immortality ability, like being rewinded on dieing or somewhat cursing the opponent.
Have you tried about making a Fate egg, mitosis, shard of readiness combo?
edit:doesn't work; fate egg costs too much and dies to everything
Post by: ColorlessGreen on July 10, 2013, 03:17:39 pm
Anyway i'd like it to have a pseudo immortality ability, like being rewinded on dieing or somewhat cursing the opponent.
Now that you mention it, it'd be fun if killing a fate egg caused the egg to hatch (i.e. killing it breaks the shell so the creature can emerge). Alternately, if you assume thematically that the egg isn't done growing yet if it's killed prematurely, it could produce an abomination. Or, it could produce a random mutant (which would make it generally better to kill the thing than actually pop it, making it a bit of a counter against field-wide damage and enabling synergy with dry spell et al).
Post by: Silux on July 12, 2013, 03:31:19 pm
If you want a random creature at low cost, better to have fate egg to cost 1 less.
If you want a random creature at medium cost, but in a reliable way, let it hatch instantly, or being somewhat invulnerable when unhatched.
I like more the idea of a tiny, frail and defenseless egg, that hatches in something really poweful like a dragon or a nymph.
Post by: aristalis on August 04, 2013, 12:57:33 am
Post by: Naesala on August 04, 2013, 04:34:04 am
It could have 5 hp and voodoo. Same cost, but much harder to deal with, and combos with pandemonium thenWith absolutely no thematic reasoning
Post by: pie on August 04, 2013, 04:11:16 pm
When *Creature name here* enters play , hatch all eggs.
Or ... If *Creature* is in play , Hatched creatures gain +x | +y.
Another one - When egg "dies" , hatch a 1~3 | 1~3 Mutant.
Post by: serprex on August 04, 2013, 04:54:25 pm
I lean towards the cost reduction, eggs should be crackable. But having some half grown fetus creature (like Abomination) upon forced hatching works too
edit The only mention of summoning sickness has been pointing out that mutants don't have it. Hatching into a creature with an ability should have no summoning sickness for that ability
Post by: eaglgenes101 on December 22, 2013, 08:52:05 pm
Post by: iancudorinmarian on December 23, 2013, 10:44:58 am
1) Cost reduction.
2) Hatching into mutants.
3) Some CC resistance.
I'd just say reduce the cost to 2 :time
This would help eggtal, mitoegg and decks like this.
Post by: Blacksmith on December 23, 2013, 10:48:34 am
So there are different options from what I see:I agree. Would make it easier to add into un upped rainbows and easier to make combos with bonds and fractal and still wouldn't be op.
1) Cost reduction.
2) Hatching into mutants.
3) Some CC resistance.
I'd just say reduce the cost to 2 :time
This would help eggtal, mitoegg and decks like this.
Post by: AvusXIV on December 23, 2013, 09:07:26 pm
So there are different options from what I see:I agree. Would make it easier to add into un upped rainbows and easier to make combos with bonds and fractal and still wouldn't be op.
1) Cost reduction.
2) Hatching into mutants.
3) Some CC resistance.
I'd just say reduce the cost to 2 :time
This would help eggtal, mitoegg and decks like this.
Same here. Cost to 2 :time and it rox :)
Post by: eaglgenes101 on December 23, 2013, 09:11:07 pm
Post by: laxnut90 on December 27, 2013, 08:48:00 am
So there are different options from what I see:I agree. Would make it easier to add into un upped rainbows and easier to make combos with bonds and fractal and still wouldn't be op.
1) Cost reduction.
2) Hatching into mutants.
3) Some CC resistance.
I'd just say reduce the cost to 2 :time
This would help eggtal, mitoegg and decks like this.
Same here. Cost to 2 :time and it rox :)
I agree. The cost should be reduced to 2 :time and it would be great. It would become very useful in rainbows and could add an aggressive rush card to the time element.
Post by: dark ripper on December 27, 2013, 12:33:30 pm
Post by: dragtom on December 27, 2013, 02:40:35 pm
Also, that allows it to use it's ability if you were to give it another one. (BE, mitosis, mutation...)
The point of buffing this card, is that the strength depends on the creatures that are currently in the game.
For most decks, the salvagers made it weaker, yet seraph made it stronger.
So with every update that adds a creature, the strength of fate egg changes.
Still, I think a cost of 2 :time would be a good buff.
It might be a bit strong, but that is hard to tell with randomness.
Post by: neonshadow123 on December 28, 2013, 04:27:00 pm
Post by: seulintse on November 19, 2014, 01:09:26 am
Post by: iancudorinmarian on November 19, 2014, 05:58:52 am
Post by: Ginyu on November 19, 2014, 09:21:09 am
Cost 1 :time and ability 3 :time
3 to summon and 1 to hatch (or has that been a buff suggestion?)
Compared with SoR, Eggs aren't UP. Getting two - maybe - strong creatures out in 1st or secund turn (upped) is just... bam!
Without SoR... more a fun card, yeah.
The only buff which makes non-sharded eggs stronger without making them with SoR OP would be a slight health increase. But it's... an egg. How would you explain an egg to have more than 1 HP?
Post by: andretimpa on November 19, 2014, 10:00:48 am
Post by: Ginyu on November 19, 2014, 10:56:10 am
Post by: Generation_G34 on November 19, 2014, 11:07:22 am
Fate egg's bane is it's RNG, yes you could easily get two ruby dragons on second turn, but you could also get 2 photons
Post by: Ginyu on November 19, 2014, 11:20:25 am
Pssst.... you didn't put a "do not change" option
Option 3 is no change: "cost 3 quanta as it was before, and 1 quanta for the ability. Why are we having this question?"
Post by: Generation_G34 on November 19, 2014, 11:34:09 am
Pssst.... you didn't put a "do not change" option
Option 3 is no change: "cost 3 quanta as it was before, and 1 quanta for the ability. Why are we having this question?"
My eyes are failing me. so sorry :-\
Post by: serprex on November 19, 2014, 03:18:04 pm
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/buff-this-card!/fate-egg-fate-egg
Post by: Blacksmith on November 19, 2014, 06:00:03 pm
What ian suggested is the buff we did in oEtG. You still don't see SoR eggs everywhere, but the tempo for the quanta is better for playing an early egg.Making it cost :time and make usage :time :time :time is good with sor but otherwise no big difference.
How about this
(http://i.imgur.com/hDD4zk8.png)(http://i.imgur.com/r4P9kGN.png)
Post by: FreyzIngardt on November 28, 2014, 04:43:35 am
As somebody said before, it has a chance to turn into a really weak creature like a Photon; you just spent 1 turn and 4 quanta to get something you could've played for free. Or for only one or two quanta.
The egg should be buffed so that it can only turn into other creatures that have a quanta cost of 4 or higher. That would help alleviate the cost a little; you're almost certain to get something that's at least useful (and worth the cost).
Post by: Shinki12345 on November 28, 2014, 04:53:20 am
What ian suggested is the buff we did in oEtG. You still don't see SoR eggs everywhere, but the tempo for the quanta is better for playing an early egg.
Idk if this is what you mean by tempo, but the main advantage I see in this change is that they can be played on turn 1 with a two tower start, then transformed turn two, rather than having to wait to play it until after you generate the quanta, THEN wait an extra turn to use its ability. This would of course also work in most other situations involving low quanta or early quanta.
Its a buff, although quite a minor one.
Post by: CuCN on November 28, 2014, 05:07:47 am
1. Pick a card that you think is weak and needs buffing (you can only pick ones that haven't been already picked)
There's already 20 pages of discussion on buffing Fate Eggs.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/buff-this-card!/fate-egg-elite-fate-egg/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/buff-this-card!/fate-egg-fate-egg/
Post by: seulintse on November 28, 2014, 08:12:28 am
In all seriousness, bro, the oracle is the quintessential (<---HA! I just made a card joke! ;) ) character to make fun of (can you really say there's any sort of character in this game, much less human? Seriously, we have crusaders, dragonflies, fireflies, frogs, scorpions, guardian angels and seraphs, but no humans, whatsoever). How do you think this board gets so much traffic? ;D
wow, this is really hard for me to not make a joke about... :D In all seriousness (as much as I can muster, lol), this must really suck as a card if people will have over 20 pages of buffing this card (it
(http://i61.tinypic.com/260u0qr.jpg)
Post by: andretimpa on November 28, 2014, 10:23:14 am
Post by: serprex on November 28, 2014, 07:26:12 pm
Post by: iDaire on November 29, 2014, 04:04:28 pm
Three time quanta and one more to turn it into a random creature. The only thing holding it back is that it has summoning sickness.
Post by: frimax on December 15, 2014, 04:26:10 pm
What about if the fate egg hatched into a stronger creature the longer it waited un-hatched? or I like the idea of it being burrowed.
Nice idea here, it will be great to have a counter on the egg, 1 turn a low level creature, 2 turn a 5 cost or more, 3 turn a dragon according to your mark, 4 turns, a superior mutant, 5 turns something unstable and dangerous.
Post by: foxrain4 on February 28, 2015, 01:52:54 pm
Post by: Treldon on February 28, 2015, 01:56:22 pm
how about the fate egg hatches instantly when killed.
That would result in the other player having absolutley no chance of removing Fate Egg from play (preventing it from hatching), which would hardly be balanced
Post by: dragtom on February 28, 2015, 07:56:36 pm
which causes it to become a fate egg upon reverse timing it.
this way, you can rewind your own creatures if you want a better one,
at the cost of some quanta and another turn.
of course, this may cause problems when you got a mummy or skelly;
it'd simply require one of the passives to be removed.
Post by: OldTrees on March 01, 2015, 03:16:30 am
Incorrect, such a Fate Egg can still be removed.how about the fate egg hatches instantly when killed.
That would result in the other player having absolutley no chance of removing Fate Egg from play (preventing it from hatching), which would hardly be balanced
It would mean it takes 2 CC to remove it before hatching (1 to hatch it the other to remove the hatched creature) or they can just patiently wait until it hatches(after all it is harmless until hatched).
No comment on whether it would or would not be balanced at the current cost. However such an effect would easily have a cost that would be balanced.
Post by: andretimpa on March 21, 2015, 02:39:21 pm
Incorrect, such a Fate Egg can still be removed.how about the fate egg hatches instantly when killed.
That would result in the other player having absolutley no chance of removing Fate Egg from play (preventing it from hatching), which would hardly be balanced
It would mean it takes 2 CC to remove it before hatching (1 to hatch it the other to remove the hatched creature) or they can just patiently wait until it hatches(after all it is harmless until hatched).
No comment on whether it would or would not be balanced at the current cost. However such an effect would easily have a cost that would be balanced.
also lobo effects
Post by: rageingnonsense on May 29, 2015, 02:13:20 am
Post by: omegareaper7 on May 29, 2015, 03:05:31 pm
I currently use this deck:The problem with fate eggs is the one turn down time for a random creature that is likely not going to be above 6 attack. So not only do you have the fragility the first turn, you also have the delay while rushes are beating you down, on top of that weakness to control decks. Lightning will kill roughly 7/10 creatures it can transform into if not killing the egg itself.I'm able to play my fate eggs very fast, and have not had an issue with creature control on them (nothing consistent at least). I could see a problem if you can't generate time quanta fast enough, but otherwise I see no problem with this card.
Post by: Treldon on May 29, 2015, 08:08:40 pm
Post by: rageingnonsense on May 30, 2015, 01:44:11 am
You could run with SoR instead of SoSe, thus removing the 1 turn delay and get double creatures. Of course this would require a completely different deck...
I used to play this deck, and it was so much fun! I play SoSe now simply because it is so random, I get to try zany stuff out that would be nearly impossible otherwise. Lots of fun. Sometimes you get screwed by bad luck, but it is worth it.
Post by: ratcharmer on November 07, 2015, 08:13:57 pm
Mechanics wise, I really don't think anything needs changed--the card is a lot of fun the way it is. I'd just recommend lowering the summon cost to :time and then raising the hatch cost to :time :time
The lower total cost would make it a more viable option, and moving some of the cost to the hatch would make cc a little less brutal.
Post by: tereret on November 20, 2015, 05:52:40 pm
Post by: Zyardran on November 20, 2015, 05:58:47 pm