Forum Brawl #4 - Round 2 Voting

[rob77dp]

Spoiler for Frozengaia response and OT's statements:

Honestly I consider "0hp + Cannot die" to be a design trap for this task. Rather than deal with what 0hp means, the "Cannot die" feature negates original meaning of hp for the creature.

This is how I'm going to judge a card:
Can the card be translated into a spell? Does it >have< to be a creature?
Does the card >need< 0 HP to function from a design standpoint? This excludes the power of a card.

If the answer to either of these is yes, then I believe you have failed this task, because you have not made a creature with 0 HP.

You have made a spell in creature form, because all you have done is took a spell and rewrote it so it can magically be a creature (Good Example). You have worked around the 0 HP by just making a spell in creature form.

OR

You have made a creature which does not use the 0 HP as an actual function. You've made a card that just happens to have 0 HP because arbitrary reasons. You have worked around the 0 HP by not making it necessary.
Frostbite's submission can just be a 5 | 1 with "delay this for 1 turn instead of dying." and be the same card.
Domino's submission can just be a 2 | 1. Okay, it loses its fancy "basically can't die" armour, but the core of the card is the same - it doesn't NEED to die over and over and over.
Poltergeist has 0 HP for... What reason? Really? Why can't it have 1 HP?

I believe that the 0 HP merely means that the creature has to be removed in other ways. In the case of MoL, it starts hurting you if it's removed, instead of dying. In my case, you have to kill a creature, THEN it'll die. Is that not using the 0 HP to do something?

I had typed some sort of elaborate response but now reading Frozengaia's reply I feel comfortable applying the "what Frozen said" defense.  I especially "ditto" the last couple statements from here.

Edit: And of course I fully grasp and support the final line that "each voter can use what they want to judge a submission".  I just feel some basic response and discourse can also be appropriate when done properly (read: civil manner).

[OldTrees]

I believe that the 0 HP merely means that the creature has to be removed in other ways. In the case of MoL, it starts hurting you if it's removed, instead of dying. In my case, you have to kill a creature, THEN it'll die. Is that not using the 0 HP to do something?

I agree that your criteria is a good one.

However this last part seems foreign to me. Spark is the first 0 hp creature to spring to my mind. Although it could easily be replaced by a 3 damage spell, it demonstrates a creature that acts like it has 0 health (it dies). In contrast, a creature that does not die to damage sounds more like 4|- than 4|0. Such a creature does not need an hp stat.

The more time I spend thinking about this task, the more I realize how hard the task is. I am reminded of a creature that spawns twice upon death but I am having trouble thinking of a second example. So perhaps I am being too harsh.

Edit: @rob77dp I agree about the importance of discourse

[Fippe94]

Note that HP is still relevant for our (Ragnarök's) card because it gets treated just like a normal creature as soon as host dies.(So if it had more than 0 hp it would not die then)

[AD TienzuStorm]

The thing is, if the card doesn't have some way to have an effect before dying, then you might as well just point at Spark and say "here it is".

The easiest way to get around this problem is to have it stay on the field longer than it should, hence the "can't die" and "comes back" mechanics.

I believe that the 0 HP merely means that the creature has to be removed in other ways. In the case of MoL, it starts hurting you if it's removed, instead of dying. In my case, you have to kill a creature, THEN it'll die. Is that not using the 0 HP to do something?

You could also have a card that says "If target creature dies, Leech also dies" and give it 1 HP for Leech. All of these cards can be replaced by something without 0 HP.

And I have to agree with OldTrees: Leech is essentially a Shard of Wisdom in creature form that can't target immaterial creatures (I'm actually confused as to how Leech's mechanic works, do you target a creature or is it randomly chosen?).

[eljoemo]

EDIT - AD posted while I was typing, so that might make some things I've said obsolete

In response to what has been said, I consider the "This card has 0 hp but cannot die" clause to be avoiding the problem. Aside from all the funky business it brings up with stuff like Otyugh, Immo, Maxwell's, Catapult (wat?), Freeze + Shockwave, it breaks a fundamental rule of the game. Creatures with 0 hp die. That's it, the end. A card that can survive with 0 hp doesn't make sense, and the concept of negative hp is illogical (I know negative attack is a think, but its easy to think of negative attack as healing, but what does negative hp mean?).

The "Come back to life after death" might mean the same thing as "This card cannot die" but its a better way of doing it. It's still a work-around of the 0 hp concept, and it still basically means that once the damage hits the field, it won't be going anywhere any time soon, but it's a better way of doing things. If you buff a card like this, and it dies, you get it back in its original state. However, if you buff a "cannot die" creature, that buff stays (especially since there's no way to remove attack currently). Of course 0 hp creatures that come back every turn have their own problems with death effects, but that's to do with balance, not illogical concepts.

Given that I didn't even think of the "cannot die" concept, and that I considered and shot down the "comes back after death" idea, I narrowed down how I wanted the card to work to two possibilities. I considered making a creature with the mechanic "If this creature dies, do ____", but a creature like that could (and probably should) just be a spell instead. It fits better in most cases, and rules out any Fractal shenanigans that might occur.

So I went for my other idea, make a card that thematically would have 0 hp. The idea being it's a lost soul that wants to go to the after life, but if you keep it trapped in this world, it'll start haunting the place. I might not have made a card that is totally hinged on the 0 hp thing, but I made a creature that has a thematic reason to have 0 hp, like Spark and Phase Salvager have a thematic reason to have 0 hp (seeing as these are the only 0 hp creatures in game, I'm going to keep making this comparison). And yes, the Poltergeist could have 1 hp and still kinda make sense, but so could Spark and Phase Salvager, they just don't.

[andretimpa]

Is it just me or is ghost of the present + GP = dim shield with unlimited turns and a 4 HP upkeep?



Comment on art:

MoL: The light/shadow in the Otyugh are well done. No change in the pose of Otyugh compared to the card art, but that's okay and the perspective in the table is wrong but it doesn't ruin it. Overall a nice drawing.

Frost: Good job on the rocks. Things get a bit busy around the crawler and it gives a turbulent feel for the water. I'd have used straight strokes, except on the countor of the crawler (where the water actually gets turbulent during swimming). Still, the turbulence should be barely visible, since water is transparent. I liked the design of the crawler.

Ragnarok: I think this is a very clever design for an antlion and the proportions seem believable to me. An ant the size of a lion is certainly more intimidating than the in game counterpart.

Gravy: The quality of the drawing is very good. It is believable without losing neither the fantasy feel nor the techy feel associated with gravity and got my vote.

I'm very proud of how my drawing turned.

[ARTHANASIOS]

Is it just me or is ghost of the present + GP = dim shield with unlimited turns and a 4 HP upkeep?

It heavily depends on how Zanz has coded the game. Does the GPull effect dissappears when a creature indeed dies OR when a creature drops just below 1 hp (thus dying)? In the first case, GPull is going to stay at GotPresent infinitely or till another creature becomes GPulled. In the second case, GPull is going to be removed either instantly or right after the first attack.

[Annele]

Is it just me or is ghost of the present + GP = dim shield with unlimited turns and a 4 HP upkeep?

It heavily depends on how Zanz has coded the game. Does the GPull effect dissappears when a creature indeed dies OR when a creature drops just below 1 hp (thus dying)? In the first case, GPull is going to stay at GotPresent infinitely or till another creature becomes GPulled. In the second case, GPull is going to be removed either instantly or right after the first attack.

Well, when I designed the card I meant for gpull to be removed at 0hp, which would have to be how it would be coded, or the combo would be broken.

[Espithel]

Well, when I designed the card I meant for gpull to be removed at 0hp, which would have to be how it would be coded, or the combo would be broken.

Likewise. I didn't mention it because it's an "arbitrary and cheap patch", apparently.

Anyways, vote people. I didn't make that hidden fanfic for no reason.

[OldTrees]

Non Brawler Vote Round 2 by OldTrees

Boss & DB Meaning of Life Ragnarok Artist Meaning of Life Red Stars CD Red Stars *** FE & OT Ragnarok Gravy Train Co. Writer *** *** Bonus Red Stars Gravy Train Co. Challenge Meaning of Life n/a

Deck+Boss:
All of these decks look very fitting to me. I can't differentiate them based on merit so I picked the decks based on how much fun I would personally have playing them.

Artist:
[Disclaimer: I have literally almost no aesthetic sense.]
I choose the eating competition for its humor and the Schrodinger's Cat for its well done anatomy and simple symbolism.

Card Design:
I gave my preliminary thoughts earlier. The resulting discussion was good since it made me realize the task was harder than it looked at a first glance. I still think that "cannot die" is a cop out while "returns when dies" is not necessarily provided it cannot better designed without the 0hp. However both Temporal Golem and Domino make more sense with an "on turn" trigger instead of an "on death" trigger. So Poltergeist did the best job in my opinion by avoiding both the "cannot die" and having intended synergy between the element and the 0hp.

FE/OT:
Humor is rather subjective. I remember The Secret and I find the "try not to laugh" challenges to be enjoyable (if easy).

Bonus:
I am a fan of simplicity in symbolism (elegance in another word). A fist has too many unused aspects and Ragnarok's background lacks instant clarity.

Challenge!:
Both were thoroughly enjoyable reads. I personally thought the humorous and unexpected twist moral at the end of the first to decide the tiebreaker.

[Calambar]

Non-brawler Round 2 by Krzysiekxd

Boss & DB *** *** Artist Meaning of Life Red Stars CD *** *** FE & OT Meaning of Life Red Stars Writer Meaning of Life Frostbite Borealis Bonus Red Stars Meaning of Life Challenge Meaning of Life n/a

Spoiler for Explanations:

ARTIST

Spoiler for Hidden:

Meaning of Life

As NL comic drawer a choice was obvious for me. I love your art. Don't you want to help me with NL comics Treldon? ^^

Red Stars

First glance: Okeyish art of cat, nice, but nothing special.
Second glance: What is it below? Awesome cat anatomy! You get my vote sir!

The Rest

All of the other arts are really good as well, maybe just Frostbite Borealis' is a little bit too messy for me, but big plus for shadings (I really still don't know how to shade, but I started to try in my comics ). The two teams who got my vote are just most appealing to me. But gratz for everyone, good job!

FE & OT

Spoiler for Hidden:

Uh, it would be very difficult to choose what is funnier among all of the listed threads. Humor is subjective and it is not so difficult to find and just provide some funny topics, thus I considered extra work given to it, I mean how the links were presented. Two teams that got my vote did most of the extra work, that's all.

WRITER

Spoiler for Hidden:

Meaning of Life

I like the positive tone of the whole story, it is touchy and has good moral, I liked the reading ^^

Frostbite Borealis

Well-written, funny and has quite positive ending, good job.

The Rest

Well, all of the other submissions were ok, but I didn't quite like the gloominess of Ragnarok and Red Stars' stories, and even though I liked Gravy Train Co.'s submission, I just found the stories I voted for better. But well done all writers!

BONUS:

Spoiler for Hidden:

Red Stars

Simple, neat, to the point. If I were a Brawler this time, I would definitely like to have such an icon. Good job!

Meaning of Life

Fist for me has a natural connotation with brawl and it's ok, icon should be simple and to the point and this is nicely done, therefore it got my vote. Gratz!

Gravy Train Co

I really like the design, it's well-done but for me the icons I voted on simply fit better.

Frostbite Borealis

I prefer MoF's fist.

Ragnarok

Sorry, maybe I'm dumb, but I don't get it. Can anyone explain me what does the background symbolize?

CHALLENGE

Spoiler for Hidden:

Both stories are funny and well-written. It was really hard to decide. I was about to give Gravy Train Co. a vote because it is more Elements related, but then I read the task again, "Make a bedtime story." After that I felt MoL's story is better in this context.

[eljoemo]

Well I'm not going to insult everyone's work and not tell you about it

Spoiler for Hidden:

Team Vote Round 2 by eljoemo

Boss & DB Ragnarok Red Stars Artist Red Stars MoL CD Red Stars Gravy Train FE & OT Red Stars Gravy Train Writer Red Stars Frostbite Bonus Red Stars Gravy Train Challenge MoL n/a

Spoiler for Boss & DB:

I feel like the phrases restricted the decks rather a lot, mostly to a specific element. I've tried my best to be fair with how workable each phrase is, and how you dealt with it.

MoL - Good job with matching up all the cards to the words, and a good solid deck. I feel like you could have done better than what is essentially adrenascorps, but this was still a good submission and was close to getting a vote.

Frostbite - Flooding was a given for your phrase. A trident would have been nice (because of Tsunami) and it would have helped tie your deck and your phrase in together. Overall it doesn't have a "washes away the competition" feel, since the flooding is more of an afterthought and the main deck is SoPa squids.

Ragnarok - A very good representation of "knocking 'em dead", and a spin on Catatitans that I don't recalled seeing in the past. Thumbs up to you.

Gravy Train - I was expecting something original using Hammer|Gavel, and instead got a generic flying titans deck. Not impressed.

Spoiler for Artist:

This was a really great round, and I changed my vote a couple times because I couldn't chose between them. Well done to all the artists (or whoever did the task). That skeleton kitty though...

MoL - I feel like the drawing could have been more elements related, and that you could have reinvented the otyugh a little more, but it's still a really fun submission and worth the vote.

Frostbite - I've never imagined what a blue crawler would look like from the front, and now I don't want to. I feel like the proportions are a bit off (I expected it to be more tentacly than it is), and it appears to be missing its eyes which is pretty terrifying. Good drawing, but not good enough I'm afraid.

Ragnarok - A good drawing of a literal antlion. It looks a little static though, and I think it would be a bit difficult for that creature to burrow itself. Still a good drawing though.

Gravy Train - The proportions are a little off and he thing looks a little... dumpy, for want of a better word. Its not quite how I'd imagined a mercenary, but your submission is a close runner up.

Spoiler for CD:

MoL - I've already said how I feel about the "cannot die" thingy. Aside from that, having the second part of the ability removable is a little strange, and allows for some dodgy combos with Acceleration or Liquid shadow, for example. And in regards to GP, I see no reason why it should be removed at 0 hp if the creature isn't dead, but that's up to the game really (although if you're relying on the game being coded a certain way for your card not to be broken, it isn't a good sign).

Frostbite - So its 4 quanta for an average of 2.5/3 damage per turn pretty much constantly. Seems a little weak, but less broken. But I can't think of a situation where it would be useful really. Not really an interesting card in the end.

Ragnarok - I've already said how I feel about the "cannot die" thingy. This can get really broken if you quint the original creature too, and Acceleration and Liquid shadow cause problems again. The "Host a creature" clause could be explained a little better as well. (Random though, Leech should just gain the HP of the host or whatever creature, but that's a card for another day)

Gravy Train - Its a slightly more interesting version of Frostbite's idea. I don't like that it leads to infinite loops (but I don't like a lot of the concepts from this round), but at least its small enough that it won't be a problem. The firs time I read the card, I read the last part as "each creature with HP < 4", and I prefer that better honestly, but its still good. The death effects every turn probably make this way powerful with Bonewall/Vultures, especially with the upped not needing gravity. I'm still not convinced by it, but it's the best of the rest, so you get the vote.

FE & OT - MoL's submission was pretty much all the same joke, and even a cameo from myself couldn't get you the vote, Sorry. The rest were all good, I just preferred Gravy Train's List.

Writer - I really like Frostbite's submission. Zanz creating Elements in 7 updates really made me laugh. MoL's and Ragnarok's were decent just not as good. And I didn't care for Gravy Train's much at all.

Bonus - I don't like the fist approach that MoL and Frostbite went for, and Ragnarok's seems to lack detail. I voted for the ones that I liked best, basically.

Challenge - I liked MoL's better. Nothing else to it.