Poll

1. BOSS: Which submission had the best cheap deck that can consistantly beat Bronze?

Submission #1
10 (13.5%)
Submission #2
8 (10.8%)
Submission #3
7 (9.5%)
Submission #4
6 (8.1%)
Submission #5
26 (35.1%)
Submission #6
17 (23%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:21:47 pm

Poll

2. CARD DESIGNER: Which submission had the best new healing card for Light?

Submission #1
13 (19.1%)
Submission #2
20 (29.4%)
Submission #3
6 (8.8%)
Submission #4
9 (13.2%)
Submission #5
7 (10.3%)
Submission #6
13 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 67

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:22:32 pm

Poll

3. DECKBUILDING: Which submission had the best deck using ONLY forum cards and Pillars/Pendulums?

Submission #1
13 (22%)
Submission #2
5 (8.5%)
Submission #3
9 (15.3%)
Submission #4
16 (27.1%)
Submission #5
4 (6.8%)
Submission #6
12 (20.3%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:23:08 pm

Poll

4. ARTIST: Which submission had the best new card art for an existing, in-game card?

Submission #1
5 (6.9%)
Submission #2
7 (9.7%)
Submission #3
14 (19.4%)
Submission #4
9 (12.5%)
Submission #5
7 (9.7%)
Submission #6
30 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 71

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:24:01 pm

Poll

5. WRITER: Which submission had the best "conversation" between at least 2 False Gods?

Submission #1
12 (20.3%)
Submission #2
4 (6.8%)
Submission #3
17 (28.8%)
Submission #4
9 (15.3%)
Submission #5
8 (13.6%)
Submission #6
9 (15.3%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:24:29 pm

Poll

6. OFF-TOPICKER: Which submission best described a parallel universe with 1 major change (compared to our universe), and how it would alter every facet of society?

Submission #1
20 (37.7%)
Submission #2
5 (9.4%)
Submission #3
10 (18.9%)
Submission #4
6 (11.3%)
Submission #5
4 (7.5%)
Submission #6
8 (15.1%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:25:34 pm

Poll

7. FORUM EXPERT: Which submission was the best Wiki article?

Submission #1
2 (3.8%)
Submission #2
12 (22.6%)
Submission #3
9 (17%)
Submission #4
21 (39.6%)
Submission #5
9 (17%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Voting closed: September 07, 2012, 02:25:59 pm

*Author

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg538860#msg538860
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 10:56:21 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
^
I can accept exploiting the AI (though it would be nice not to overdo it) but yes, I have a serious problem with "using cards that are especially good against extra-powerful opponents", as you say. Broken cards just shouldn't exists and shouldn't be used for any reason. Even against FG and Gold/Plat arenas there can be found non-broken ways to make it. Furthermore, if those broken cards/decks remained ONLY in FG farming it could be acceptable, but since nothing prevents someone to troll PvP or Arena with an Instosis, Poisondial etc. deck, the last thing we should do is to advertise those (especially if this advertisment comes with comments of how broken this card was/is and how much it was nerfed). I have a problem with advertising broken decks in the community-recommended decks section, I have a problem with advertising broken decks at chat and I have a problem with advertising broken decks in wiki.
If you don't like my opinion, that's fine. I also don't like the broken Ghostmares, Disco-BH or SoF-based decks of yours (and I am not reffering to Cheesy111 right now)...

Erm.  You are making a SERIOUS mistake about the upgraded PvP metagame if you think that Instosis/PDials are viable.  They aren't broken decks because they aren't overly powerful in pvp.  Heck, I wouldn't say they're broken at all.  They're powerful against FGs for the same reason USEM is great against AI3 - they're tailored to defeat a known set of decks played by a not-so-great AI. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to when you talk about broken decks.  Are you talking about powerful decks (blarp)? Are you talking about decks that exploit a powerful combo (ghostmare, DBH)?  Are you talking about decks that make the metagame revolve around them (SoFoBow(unupped))? What is your criteria for a deck being broken?

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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg538861#msg538861
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2012, 11:00:26 pm »
Erm.  You are making a SERIOUS mistake about the upgraded PvP metagame if you think that Instosis/PDials are viable.  They aren't broken decks because they aren't overly powerful in pvp.  Heck, I wouldn't say they're broken at all.
Blarp. Just going to input my own experience with CL here.
Shards do make up the majority of the metagame.
PDials is certainly viable, and one of the three of the RPS in CL. SoSac with either poison or dunes was very widespread.
Instosis? I've tried to use instosis a few times, but failed nearly every single time. Instosis is not cut out to be a PvP deck.
SoFo is abundant as well if it is not banned. SoFo in rainbows are very powerful.
Most "rush" decks are, if either not immorush or SNbow, shard golem rush.

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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539071#msg539071
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2012, 07:45:55 pm »
Spoiler for Cheesy111 Quote:
Erm.  You are making a SERIOUS mistake about the upgraded PvP metagame if you think that Instosis/PDials are viable.  They aren't broken decks because they aren't overly powerful in pvp.  Heck, I wouldn't say they're broken at all.  They're powerful against FGs for the same reason USEM is great against AI3 - they're tailored to defeat a known set of decks played by a not-so-great AI. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to when you talk about broken decks.  Are you talking about powerful decks (blarp)? Are you talking about decks that exploit a powerful combo (ghostmare, DBH)?  Are you talking about decks that make the metagame revolve around them (SoFoBow(unupped))? What is your criteria for a deck being broken?

All the deck types you mentioned are broken for different reasons. Here is a quick list with some of the broken decks IMO (though I think we are going too off-topic by continuing this broken-decks discussion):

*Most Broken:
In this category, there are decks which abuse/overuse Shards, especially the powerful ones and they are usually pretty difficult to be defeated, even if you are prepared for them. Instosis, Silence is Golden, SPLAT, Poisondials, SoFocus-based decks are some of these. And Instosis is indeed a very good PvP2 deck; if it has a decent draw, it can stall you forever with SunDials and summon 8+ Silurian Dragons at the same turn to OTK you by abusing a SoR's "bug" (IMO).

*Broken:
Here are decks which abuse/overuse broken comboes. They are usually easier than Most Broken to be dealt with, but the counters against them are few or not very effective. Discord-BH, Ghostmare, Immorushes are examples here which belong to this category (IMO).

*Slightly Broken:
Decks which are not really OP, but they have few counters against them or are faster/more powerful than they should belong here. Catatitans, Pestal, Crusaders-VDaggers are some good examples (IMO).
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539076#msg539076
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2012, 08:04:19 pm »
This is very off-topic, but:

PvP2 is full of SoFo and Deflags, how would Instosis stall in this case? Also SoSac and Sundials are good counters to Instosis too, those either kill Instosis or deck them out.
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539082#msg539082
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2012, 08:51:44 pm »
This is very off-topic, but:

PvP2 is full of SoFo and Deflags, how would Instosis stall in this case? Also SoSac and Sundials are good counters to Instosis too, those either kill Instosis or deck them out.

Really-really off-topic but:
 1) Instosis is weak against PC, but it is its only true weakness IMO.
 2) Instosis' player won't summon his/her Silurians as long as there are SoSac or Sundials out (he/she waits untill SoSac/Sundial chain is out), but I admit that SoSac & Sundials are indeed more powerful than they should (and the decks made around them too XD).
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539083#msg539083
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2012, 09:06:14 pm »
Spoiler for Cheesy111 Quote:
Erm.  You are making a SERIOUS mistake about the upgraded PvP metagame if you think that Instosis/PDials are viable.  They aren't broken decks because they aren't overly powerful in pvp.  Heck, I wouldn't say they're broken at all.  They're powerful against FGs for the same reason USEM is great against AI3 - they're tailored to defeat a known set of decks played by a not-so-great AI. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to when you talk about broken decks.  Are you talking about powerful decks (blarp)? Are you talking about decks that exploit a powerful combo (ghostmare, DBH)?  Are you talking about decks that make the metagame revolve around them (SoFoBow(unupped))? What is your criteria for a deck being broken?

All the deck types you mentioned are broken for different reasons. Here is a quick list with some of the broken decks IMO (though I think we are going too off-topic by continuing this broken-decks discussion):

*Most Broken:
In this category, there are decks which abuse/overuse Shards, especially the powerful ones and they are usually pretty difficult to be defeated, even if you are prepared for them. Instosis - Definitely not broken in pvp, I run a ruby OTK over it, and its just as subbable because people don't have the extra hp., Silence is Golden -Love this deck because it works so well when it works.  However, it doesn't always work, it is very combobased for having no stalling.  Plus, rush decks annihalate it, I play with this deck a lot, and have played a bit in CL (with only 2 nymphs).  Won like half the games. , SPLAT, Poisondials -If you expect splat/pdials bring a lot of healing or purify.  And seriously, this isn't abusing the OP-ness of the shard, its sticking 2 allready good strategies with a stalling card.  You can do it with bonewall as well (pdials anyway), SoFocus-based decks are some of these - SoFo OP, agreed. And Instosis is indeed a very good PvP2 deck; if it has a decent draw, it can stall you forever with SunDials and summon 8+ Silurian Dragons at the same turn to OTK you by abusing a SoR's "bug" (IMO) -First of all, all it takes is 4 dragons, this is not FG's we are talking about.  Second of all, everybody and their mother packs SoFo, SoFo destroys instosis.  3rd of all, This "bug" is viable on 3 different creatures.  It makes insanely strong combos easier.  Do you find pharoah OP becuase you can use it to spam a bunch of scarabs?.

*Broken:
Here are decks which abuse/overuse broken comboes. They are usually easier than Most Broken to be dealt with, but the counters against them are few or not very effective. Discord-BHpowerful, agreed, GhostmareAnnoying, but gogo time deck, rainbow, quanta control, cc, or sosac., Immorushes Definitely not broken.  These creatures are all extremely fragile, and are destroyed by CC.  You can outstall, sometimes outpace, and a lot of the time, just out perform them.  They are not very versatile, and you have to remember, they are only 1/2 as stable as any other deck are examples here which belong to this category (IMO).

*Slightly Broken:
Decks which are not really OP, but they have few counters against them or are faster/more powerful than they should belong here. Catatitans- PC=death  catatitans is easily beatable, especially if you see it coming.  It's a very fast unupped rush, but upped it loses a lot of splendor., PestalVery powerful, has few counters, agreed., Crusaders-VDaggers are some good examplesAether in general beats this, so does time.  However, you said "not really OP" so I have to agree. (IMO).

Woo for Off Topicking!

Also, I see that you put "IMO", here are my opinions.

This is very off-topic, but:

PvP2 is full of SoFo and Deflags, how would Instosis stall in this case? Also SoSac and Sundials are good counters to Instosis too, those either kill Instosis or deck them out.

Really-really off-topic but:
 1) Instosis is weak against PC, but it is its only true weakness IMO. Gogogo BH.  Also discord trolls it.  So does pestal.
 2) Instosis' player won't summon his/her Silurians as long as there are SoSac or Sundials out (he/she waits untill SoSac/Sundial chain is out), but I admit that SoSac & Sundials are indeed more powerful than they should (and the decks made around them too XD).Thats why if your using sosac/sundial, you simply wait for the person to draw their combo, and chain it them.  Once instosis draws it's combo, it can only survive for maybe another 3 turns, unless your extremely lucky/unlucky.
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539768#msg539768
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2012, 11:33:04 am »
Perhaps this has already been said, but serious props to the artists on this round. Some absolutely amazing work in that category.
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539857#msg539857
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2012, 04:23:22 pm »
Holy crap. Gotta hand it to my teammates here - Nyan sharks won the vote on every one!
So long and thanks for all the fish!

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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539865#msg539865
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2012, 04:54:02 pm »
As someone who played during every period mentioned in the winning Wiki article, that article was physically painful to read...
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539895#msg539895
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2012, 06:07:48 pm »
Didn't mean to cause you pain 10. Any more constructive criticism?
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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539944#msg539944
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2012, 08:06:31 pm »
Didn't mean to cause you pain 10. Any more constructive criticism?
Ok since you didn't mean to cause me pain, I'll go over it more constructively.

Quote
While the deck was plain and boring - it was about the only deck at the time that could summon enough stall power to survive wearing down a false god's 200 HP. This is really the principle behind every Anti-False God deck in this list, find a way to survive long enough to win. I believe that originally the deck used phase dragons and PU, but when Dragons became immaterial it shifted the focus from massed beatsticks to untouchable ones. The win rates with this deck were atrocious (iirc in the ballpark of 20% or less) but they were the best that was on offer at the time.

Mono Aether being used as the only god farmer in the beginning is true, but why such an awful build? 6 Immortals? Also, pretty much the only ones who used more intensively it were people who had Lobotomizers (not many - they were extremely rare back then), as that would at least allow you to beat Fire Queen once in a while.

Quote
I believe that originally the deck used phase dragons and PU, but when Dragons became immaterial it shifted the focus from massed beatsticks to untouchable ones.
To clarify this, there used to be a deck that used (non-immaterial) Aether Dragons with PU as a rush. This was before FGs existed. The same patch that introduced FGs also made the Dragons immaterial. The PU-Dragon deck was used against AI3 and in PvP, the mono Aether Dim Shield stall against FGs and in PvP. Both decks were very notorious in PvP and in Top 50, and had lots of Aether Pillars, but aside from that they were pretty much completely different.

Quote
We began to hear on the forums of a mythical deck with 75%, some claimed 85% or even better win rates.
The highest that was ever claimed back in the day was 85%. The highest believable account would be around 80%. Much later, a lot after Sundial was nerfed some people said there were winrates up to 90% which is weird (but not true).

Then there is SG's original deck, which was groundbreaking but not something anybody used after a couple weeks as it contains a lot suboptimal cards. Here is a streamlined version with Entropy Mark (which quickly became the most popular build, at least with forum goers):

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
52n 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u6 71b 71b 74b 74b 77f 7am 7am 7do 7do 7n3 7n3 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7t9 7t9 8pj


And a Time Mark version which remained popular (with myself for example).

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
52n 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u6 6u6 71b 71b 74b 74b 74b 7am 7am 7do 7do 7n3 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7t9 7t9 7t9 80d 8ps


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Eternity and Pulverizer became "the" weapons to have because of their use in these decks.
Eternity and Pulverizer were never 100% staples in these decks. Pulverizer would have been good but strongly conflicted with Otyugh for Gravity quanta. It only started seeing massive play with CCYB. Eternity was sometimes used in Entropy bows as a safety net against decking out, but many builds didn't include it as it pretty much could not do anything else - Time quanta were too scarce for offensive use. The Timebows had less danger of decking out and were completely fine with just eating/Fire Storming all the opponent's creatures and using their Time Quanta to draw.

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other Anti-False God rainbow decks built on the same principles that continue to be built and used to this day, nearly 3 years later.
SGbow style decks nowadays are pretty much dead. SGbow went for full control over the game, meaning the aim was to cripple the FG's board completely and then finish the job with mutants. Nowadays most decks just go for some defense mechanism that tries to minimize interaction (i.e. let the FG do whatever he wants) and kill with untouchable damage (Poison, Dune Scorpions) or an OTK. The last FG deck that played out similarly to SGbow was IGT.

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3) Sundial Gets Broken Eventually the power of this card was realized and thus the first "Firestall" deck was born.
List: Explosions were not used much, Mirror Shield is missing - two of the more beatable FGs (Fire Queen and Miracle) had Reflective Shields.
Secondly the deck was crap - in addition to Hermes, Rainbow, Morte and Scorpion ranched it pretty badly as well, Graviton and Chaos Lord were difficult and the other FGs sometimes outrushed you as well. Note that Sundial cost 2 :light to activate so you couldn't draw every turn. It was a nice change of pace but not nearly as efficient as the Rainbows.

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4) The end on an Era When sundial was finally nerfed (and yes, yes it needed it). The shockwaves that went through the community were huge. Players quit the game in frustration at the now massive difficulty the false god's presented. Without sundial the easy answers were gone, and while a few people played SGbows or other rainbow decks they were a shadow of what they had been. It was during this time that Shard of Gratitude moved from being a "collectors only" item and became a staple in many decks. This opened a whole new series of Anti-FG decks and sparked a return to many of the rainbow decks of the past.
A deck that really ought to be mentioned here is the PuppyChow FG deck, it was for months the absolute go-to deck for FG farmers.

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Even though Puppy Chow vastly overestimated its winrate (topped at about 50%), it was certainly one of the best-performing decks at the time (and also still very reminiscient of the SGBow).

CCYB and RoL Hope are obviously legit.

Eternal Chaos on the other hand gained some popularity but didn't offer a big improvement in winrate while also being very slow. It tested pretty badly in the FG deck efficiency study.
Which is something that should definitely be mentioned in the article, the study created an excellent snapshot of which decks were effective and which weren't at the time.

On the other hand, a deck that should definitely be mentioned is IGT:
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It gained popularity a little after Eternal Chaos and was the first deck after the Sundial nerf to rise significantly above the 50% winrate threshold (and was actually confirmed by independant testers to do so), easily reaching 60% and more, at the price of somewhat slow games.
A modification of it, Ghostal, even solved this problem by eschewing the full board-control plan in favour of a quick Fractal-Ghost rush. It became one of the best-performing decks in the FG-efficiency study.

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Two decks that could be worth mentioning are Mono-Aether, which (re)gained some popularity for some time and Liquid Antimatter which was playable both unupgraded and upgraded. Another famous almost-unupgraded FG farmer was Flay'Em.

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Shak'ars
Shak'ars gained some tremendous popularity for some time. A lot of this was due to the creator (Jangoo) writing a beyond-awesome teaser for the deck. The deck itself had some hype but did not perform very well in the FG efficiency study. Moreover it was discovered that Sundials are just strictly better than Precognitions.

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but games were blisteringly fast, usually over in less than 5 minutes.
less than 3 minutes, with 5 minutes you are already getting into IGT territory.

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Cloaked Dragon (...) Win rate was fairly solid 50% - 60% (iirc)
A solid 40-50. Ok, nitpicking there.

The new decks are obviously ok, FG farming has become a little less relevant nowadays as people can farm Arena which yields a little less money gain per time but multiple times the score, usually making it more attractive. Oh and I don't see a Sundial in the last deck.
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Offline Chapuz

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Re: Brawl #1 - Round 2 [Voting Phase] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43161.msg539948#msg539948
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2012, 08:24:30 pm »
Holy crap. Gotta hand it to my teammates here - Nyan sharks won the vote on every one!
AAAAAAAAAAAWESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME

Basing on my personal opinion about our submitions in round 3, I expect something really similar  ;D
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